Some Chopin - Polonaise in Ab, Etude in C# Minor

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this so forgive me if I make any errors.

I'm 21 years old at the moment - the piano is a relatively "new" thing to me, having only "really" played it for about 5 years intensively - unlike all the other pianists who start at age 3 and so on. I've never done Czerny. I know only one Prelude/Fugue by Bach. But I really do love the piano, and I am hoping for some feedback as to whether or not I have potential.

I've posted two short recordings - one clip of the Polonaise (the first few minutes), and the other the C# Minor Etude from Op. 10.

Beware there are a lot of mistakes! (I prefer temperament to perfection). Also, the recording of the etude was done on a quite out-of-tune Yamaha piano.

Looking forward to your replies,
Yosuke

 

Hi Yosuke, welcome to PS. You have some real ambitious pieces here for a young person who has played for only 5 years. Quite an achievement.

Let's get the real nasty comments out the way first. With all respect for your potential virtuosity and the hard work you must have put into it, that etude is just awful... The sound is really bad, there are so many mistakes that sometimes it's a mere approximation, and the whole seems drowned in pedal (or at least it sounds so mushy to give that impression). Apart from that, it's great

But the Polonaise has potential. There are many good things here and you could make this into something good if you keep working on it. I must however recommend playing accurately and in time. Things like trills and ornaments cannot be glossed over like you do. There are also many read errors, so you'll need to go back to the score and verify you play all the right notes. I don't quite know that you're doing in bars 14-16 but this is not as written.

It' all well and fine to state you prefer temperament to perfection but that does not mean you can play sloppily. Temperament without a reasonable degree of perfection is useless. So in the etude, practice at half the speed you play it now (that tempo is reserved for the professionals I'm afraid) and try to get the notes right before you speed up. For the polonaise I recommend playing strict, accurately and rhythmical (maybe even with the metronome to start with), going back to the score to check all that you do, and try to get the dynamics, accents and phrasing right. I maintain that one should be able to play metronomically in time before attempting rubato. Play more Bach !

I'd say you have potential allright. But get a teacher if you don't have one, and pay her/him good money to tell you much the same as I've just told you :lol:

 

Hi Mr. Breemer,

Thank you for your most encouraging and constructive comments, such as "this is just awful."

I do concede many things that you have pointed out in my playing. Yes, there are so many mistakes. As Anton Rubinstein once said, if I picked up all the wrong notes I could probably play another concert. Yes, it is drowned in pedal, so heavily in fact, that I might as well play the piano in the ocean, in.

That, to many dismayed and horrified listeners, probably made it, "just awful".

The comments did sound rather harsh to me and it got me down a bit, and I got a hunch that you have very, very, very, very, very different musical tastes as I do, and this struck my curiousity, so I took the liberty of listening to one of the recordings of the C# Minor Etude (by Mr. Bertoglio), and also of the Ab Polonaise by Mr. Kopp - both of which were posted on your website. Finally, I thought it would also help if I knew how you played, so I listened to a recording you made of one of my favorite Brahms Intermezzi, the one in Bb Minor.

To start off with, the C# Minor one, my, such perfection! Note-perfect. All the accents and dynamics, EXACTLY as written. I followed the score. Perfect! In fact, if you translated this etude into a MIDI file, it might just about sound exactly the same. You pointed out that I should focus on "playing accurately and in time", which is of course exemplified in this recording, so I now perfectly understand where your comments are coming from. You also touched upon the temper vs. perfection debate, commenting that it's alright to prefer "temper to perfection but that does mean you can play sloppily", and that "temperament without a reasonable degree of perfection is useless". I would venture to say that perfection without ANY temperament, which is what I feel when I listened to Mr. Bertoglio's recording, is much more useless. It showed that a man could play it exactly as written. Faster than anybody. Who cares? Not anybody who wants to be moved by music. Virtuousity, yes, of course. Even if I practiced 15 hours every day for the rest of my life I would probably die before I reached that sort of perfection. No, I would definitely die before. Yes, the indicated marks are there, but the notes necessitate something more in order to make the music alive, to make it breathe, in order to bring out the "point" of each phrase (a concept I am borrowing from Rachmaninoff). For instance, a little accelerando in measure 8 to lead up to the repeat of the phrase from measure 9; and a crescendo from measure 31 to 32 in order to lead to a change of mood in measure 33. There are also many things I do not like of this recording, such as the staccato on the bass C# octave chord in the beginning, the dynamics which are either mezzoforte or forte or accented, and how, like every pianist seems to do (except Rubinstein), play the passage between measures 71 to the end as if it was simply one gigantic 12-measure phrase, instead of phrasing dividing measures 71-75 into groups of two, the latter of which starts on the G# octave bass in measure 73. I also think the "point" of the former phrase is the A# octave bass in measure 71, which isn't realized in the recording. I am guessing that if I followed your advice, this mind-boggling perfectionist would be what I would become. I resist.

Now, to the Polonaise. I concede a number of points again. I do change the text a little, namely the bars you mentioned. And I do, I supposed "gloss over", as you say, the trills and ornaments and so forth. I'm probably guessing that, by this, you mean the trills on the G and Ab, and the following repeat of the same phrase except in an octave-ornament on the same notes. I can fix this easily. Now, I was impressed by Mr. Kopp's recording. Nicely phrased, and there is an element of that "breath" I was speaking of. But to me, it sounded like a Mazurka. A pleasant, if dramatic, Mazurka. I believe there is an anecdote of Chopin teaching a pupil how to play one of his Polonaises - whether it was the A Major or the Ab Major I forget which - but when the pupil broke a string on Chopin's piano and embarrassingly apologized, it has been said the Chopin told the pupil that if he could play it as he wished, there would not be a single string left intact. A romantic invention, perhaps, but I'd like to think that the grandeur of the piece suggests that the story just might be true. Again, as was the case in the Etude, I do not think this recording makes the piece alive. What makes this piece alive, I believe, is rubato. Curiously you suggested I go back to the metronome to practice the Polonaise. Chopin did this too, I believe. But the fact you suggested that tells me there is something you do not like about the way I use the rubato. I'd like to know which part it is. I usually put quite a heavy one on the first beat of a measure, a "breath", if you will. Apparently when Chopin played his Mazurkas, he put such a heavy one on the first beat, that people thought they were in 4/4 and not in 3/4.

Or perhaps, you think I use too much. This I'm deducing from what I heard in your recording of the Bb Minor Intermezzo by Brahms. You suggested two stages for me: first, to "play metronomically" and then second, "attempting rubato". I didn't see any evidence of the latter in your recording. You also suggested I get my "phrasing right" in the Polonaise, but I would suggest the same to you in the Brahms. Frankly, there is no phrasing. But apart from that, it's great .

I am in search of a teacher, but if I am going to pay that person "good money" to get lectured in the way you have, I will be sorely disappointed. It is a depressing prospect. Of course I make mistakes, I use too much pedal, and I do make slight textual changes, but really, anybody who can follow the score could have told me this.

I am looking forward to your reply with glee, and hopefully from many others who frequent this website. What I want to bring forth is a discussion about the MUSIC, not merely the technique, which everybody seems to be preoccupied with. I am deliberately being provocative, because I am PASSIONATELY against the way music is played today so unpassionately.

In the meantime, I will play some Bach. Accurately, and in time.

Regards,
Yosuke

 

Since the 10/4 was the recording in question, I listened to that one, and I would have to agree that it sounds awful. That's mostly the recording quality, and partly also the instrument (which doesn't sound acoustic - there are some bad electronic happenings in the more percussive sections of the piece). With a close listening, I'll grant that at least 90% of the notes were played correctly, and probably closer to 95%. The problem was that the wrong notes were distorted and suspended far longer than they should have been, apparently by the combination of too much pedal and too much artificial reverb. In general, the accents are too harsh and the phrases bleed together.

I think that most of us really appreciate an emotional interpretation of a piece, but it has to be in good taste, and if the recording quality is that bad, then it's unlikely that your heartfelt interpretation of the piece is going to come through to the listener.

 

I agree with that. I'd go a little further, but let me first recover from "Mr." Bertoglio's performance of that Chopin Etude being described as follows

 

Thank you, Terez, for your reply. They were much more constructive and interesting.

I picked up about five points from your reply:
- bad instrument, which causes distortion and too much artificial reverb
- recording quality
- wrong notes
- accents are too harsh
- phrases bleed together

The first three I agree with. The recording was done in the basement of my college dorm, on an out-of-tune Yamaha piano that had just been purchased second-hand recently. Wrong notes yes, especially at the end of the piece in the big C# minor arpeggio I missed the high E. Along with many others. I myself thought 90%-95% was a bit generous.

The fourth and fifth points - were these because of the recording quality/accoustics? If not could you point out some of the measures you thought exemplified this.

It seems to me people are fixated on my mistakes and the bad quality of my recording. I also happened to write a whole two paragraphs on what I thought about music. I hope more people will respond to that and leave CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS.

The latter comment I got from Alf (I will use that name because you don't approve of my calling people Mr. X). I hope I didn't cause you too much psychological trauma. My best wishes on your "recovery". You said you would "go further", please do. It would be nice if you would also respond to the points I made about the C# Minor Etude after the sentences you quoted me on. I think I wrote a whole paragraph. And another paragraph on the Polonaise. I listened to your Poulenc, Mouvements Perpetuels. I didn't like it. I didn't like the accent on 3:01 and 4:24. In my opinion you put too many "harsh" accents. Your tone is metallic, even with better acoustics/instrument. I believe, also, to jump on the bandwagon myself and reduce music to pedantics, that there is a trill on 3:44, not sixteenth notes. You also followed practically 90% of all the phrasings/dynamics as written - I followed score. Bravo. I'd like to point out in Rachmaninoff's recording of his Third Concerto, in the beginning of the third movement, he practically plays everything opposite to what he wrote in the published version in terms of dynamics. It sounds very good.

I also have an interesting question to those following this thread - I hope there will be more. The impression I have so far is that "music-lovers" these days are unspirited, pedantic, and unemotional. I want to know who people's favorite pianists are because that gives me a good impression of their taste, and whether listening to music has made anybody cry?

 

It’s not a matter of what I may approve or disapprove, the fact is, Chiara Bertoglio is a woman. By the way, on PS pianists’ biographies are one click away from their recordings, just like in life many good things would be just one click away if only we… Good luck with the feedbacks.

 

Well that is quite embarrassing and I'm quite sorry I didn't take the time to look. My apologies.

As for the..."just like in life many good things would be just one click away if only we...", I take it you meant I should take the time to look into more things, like say, the biographies of pianists. I do, except they're all dead.

 

Whew, that went down the wrong way spectacularly !

So this is not what you wanted or hoped to hear. Yet, apart from the 'just awful' bit (for which I half-heartedly apologize), it is the same as any good teacher would tell you. The advice to take some steps back and concentrate on the right notes and rhythms is a constructive one even if it may be a bit unsettling. A teacher who'd encourage you to proceed in your current way would not be worth his/her salt. But ultimately, you play how you want to play, and you hear what you want to hear - to each his own.

Yes those Brahms recordings of mine are pretty bad, I'm well aware of it. I was not nearly ready to record them. You need to keep in mind that critics are usually mediocre musicians, and I am no exception.

I wholeheartedly agree that perfection without temperament may be just as bad as the opposite. Surely, the greatest of pianists can (or rather could, in a past era) get away with missing many notes and bending the music their own way. These days that idea doesn't quite stick anymore - yes people are more philistine about wrong notes than in the past. And, I do not think one should adopt that idea right from the start. Only once you are completely on top of both the notes and the music, you can afford to get that kind of personal. I don't feel like I am anywhere near that stage yet, dunno about you. IMO this is a privilege to be earned, not a birthright.

Anyway, that's as far as I want to dicuss this. I know this is a near-religious subject (we have some experience here from past discussions) and the tone already got a bit too heated for my taste.

 

This is the most constructive comment I've had so far and I'm very grateful for it. I do hope, contrary to what you said, that you'll keep posting on this thread.

I really really wish I got this type of response at the very beginning - that would've changed practically everything. Reading that comment "this is just awful" from the very start put me in a very foul mood, especially after practicing and putting a lot of emotion into that Etude, and that preconditioned my responses so far. And to have everyone agree with your opinion just rubbed salt into the wound. It certainly wasn't, as you say, what I was expecting to hear. I was certainly expecting to hear about wrong notes, pedalling, and the bad acoustics, but "this is just awful" was too much for me.

You are right - concentrating on the right notes and rhythms is important, albeit, to a certain extent. I have pretty much skipped these parts, and, as you say, played them how I want to play them and how I wish to hear them, and in doing so deviating from the original score. At the moment, really, I needed the kind of emotional outlet that I could only get by playing the pieces my way, phrasing them in the sort of way that allowed me to express what I wanted to.

I found two comments you made really interesting. First, that critics are mediocre musicians. And second, more interestingly, that bending music according to your own will is not a birthright but something to be earned. I want to ask, and by no means rhetorically - are you saying that hard work/diligence/perfection is what earns a pianist the right to play as he pleases? What of musicians who are not as technically strong but have good musical instincts (if there is such a thing)?

I apologize for contributing to the way this thread has gone. I hope it'll go in a different direction from now.

 

I only meant I do not want to rake up that old discussion again. We've had too many of those already.

Doesn't happen often that people here agree with my opinion. But if they did, then maybe I had a point.

Well hmmm, I could have saved that for last. But it would likely still have p*ssed you off.

I think we all have such a phase. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

I would not want to go quite that far. Actually I never feel there's an excuse for knowing better than the composer - unless you are a very good one yourself. And there's no excuse for taking the correct notes not seriously. Slips can and will happen but IMHO one should do a best effort to play correctly. Being an artist of the calibre of Cherkassky or Horowitz or Cortot maybe gives you some leeway, especially as technique erodes with age. But as a beginning artist to think that your own emotions and ideas are more important than what the composer put on paper, is starting on the wrong foot.

No problem. Just be prepared that some of us here do not beat around the bush.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Indeed so ! Talent, temperament and dedication are evident. These are some of the important prerequisites. Now discipline and direction - just as important - are to be added.

 

If you read the score correctly, theres no pedal marks in the etude except the very end.
So try to play without the pedal and please practice slower.

:wink: