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ornaments question

Discussion in 'Technique' started by pianolady, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I just picked up a new piece last night and in it is a spot with two ornaments over a two notes played at the same time. Attached you can see what I mean. I've never seen that before and doubt I can even do it. Any advice?
     
    pianolady, Jan 29, 2014
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  2. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Very weird. As for the advice...practice the voices separately. If you get accustomed to doing both of them separately, maybe you can do them together.
     
    Terez, Jan 29, 2014
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  3. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thank you, Terez! That's a good idea. This is a little Couperin piece and doesn't sound like what I think is typical Couperin. Although, I'm no expert on his music. I thought ornaments were littered all over his music; this piece has just has a few. But they're 'different'....
     
    pianolady, Jan 29, 2014
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  4. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    If they're different than you're used to from Couperin, I'd be wary of the edition. I know that Bach ornaments differ from edition to edition and you have to consult urtext to see which he actually wrote.
     
    Terez, Jan 30, 2014
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  5. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Yes, I believe you are right. I'm thinking that a bunch of ornaments are left out of the score I'm using. I think there is another edition on ISMLP, but it's not easy figuring out which book this piece is from - there are many in the Couperin series. I'll have to do some more checking...
     
    pianolady, Jan 30, 2014
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  6. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Probably a good idea. One of those random things I remember from music history classes is that Couperin was very persnickety about his ornaments. :wink: He sort of codified them; lots of his contemporaries used his instructions for how ornaments should be played.
     
    Terez, Jan 30, 2014
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  7. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I just found an explanation of this ornament.

    This is one of Couperin’s more complex uses of ornamentation. Proper execution of this combination
    dictates that the performer first initiates the trill then resolves it with the turn.

    Well, that sounds reasonable enough. Except it all has to be done in the space of an eighth note. Yikes!! :shock:
    I'm not sure I'm even going to pursue this piece. I sort of have too much on my plate right now anyway. Maybe another time I'll come back to it. Thanks for the tips, Terez! :)
     
    pianolady, Jan 30, 2014
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  8. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Well, now the fingering makes sense. :) Bach wrote those like trills with a hook on the end. Much less intimidating than playing two ornaments at once!
     
    Terez, Jan 30, 2014
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  9. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Terez, I just noticed this. What is the translation?

    "Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin
     
    pianolady, Jan 30, 2014
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  10. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    It's the same quote I used to have in my sig in translation, from a letter to Tytus dated 12 September 1829. This is the Voynich translation:

    "I have made close friends with Czerny; we often played together on two pianofortes at his house. He's a good fellow, but nothing more."

    And Hedley:

    "I am close friends with Czerny and have often played duets at his house. He is a kind fellow, but nothing more."

    I love that quote because, knowing Chopin's music, it's easy to imagine how he felt about Czerny's compositions. You can tell from the tone of his letters to his family and to Tytus that Czerny was a longtime, ongoing topic of discussion, basically representing everything Chopin most hated about piano music in general and technique studies in particular. On 19 August 1829, he wrote to his parents: "Czerny is more sensitive than any of his compositions." But when he came home from that first trip to Vienna, he began composing his own etudes. :wink:
     
    Terez, Feb 2, 2014
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  11. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Funny! It's like saying to the person, "you are a mediocre human being." :lol: I can definitely imagine Chopin saying things like that...
     
    pianolady, Feb 2, 2014
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  12. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Oh, I think Chopin thought Czerny was a lovely human being...just not a musician worth mentioning. :wink:
     
    Terez, Feb 3, 2014
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  13. Francois de Larrard

    Francois de Larrard Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hello Monica,
    I recognise a section of "Les barricades mystérieuses", actually one of the most famous harpsichord pieces of F. Couperin.
    Couperin provides at the beginning of his first book of harpsichord pieces a table of ornaments. The one you point out is not mentioned, but the upper sign appears (see the attached picture). According to Couperin, if you had only the top sign, you should play

    D-C-Bb-C.

    My best hypothesis is that, by adding the bottom sign, he means he wants another note, so that you have to play there

    C-D-C-Bb-C

    which is consistent with the fingering indicated (3-4-3-2-3).
    This is quite tricky to play on a piano, given the tempo of this piece. On a light harpsichord keyboard, it is easier. When I play this piece, which has actually few ornaments as compared to most others from the same composer, I simplify this ornament (I just play C-D-C). Not sure a baroque purist would agree :oops:
     
    Francois de Larrard, Feb 14, 2014
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  14. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Francois and Happy Valentine's day to you! :)

    You are correct--this is "Les barricades mystérieuses". I heard someone in my piano group play it recently and liked it, so I printed it out when I got back home. I didn't know that it was popular! Thank you for the advice..I may have to simplify that ornament too. But don't tell anyone.... :)
     
    pianolady, Feb 14, 2014
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  15. rainer

    rainer New Member

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    I'm not sure you need to cram all the five notes into the space of an 8th.
    You could space them out a bit and play the C-D-C as triplet 16ths fitting into an 8th, and the Bb-C as ordinary 16ths fitting into the next 8th (coinciding with the printed Bb).

    However, simplification seems a good idea. I'd be tempted to override Couperin's guidance (if that's going to make him turn in his grave, let it) and play it as a 4-note turn D-C-Bb-C as four 32nds fitting into an 8th if speed permits (it seems to lie under the fingers better that way). You don't have to play the piece as fast as Bruno Procopio does.

    Or you could slam on the brakes at that point and linger on the slowed-down ornament to draw attention to the fact that the recurring rondo part is about to come again (which it should do a tempo).
     
    rainer, Feb 19, 2014
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  16. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thanks, Rainer, that was very interesting. I put this piece away, but now I feel like taking it back out again. It’s just sort of an unusual piece..I mean for Couperin. I might be totally wrong about that, because I really don’t know a lot about his music. But this piece just doesn’t sound baroque to me.

    Anyway, that Procopio guy sure is a natural at the harpsichord! I don’t think his tempo was fast, though. But I think he did like what you said above—the C-D-C triplet.
     
    pianolady, Feb 20, 2014
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  17. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    OMG, I'm freaking out. :shock: :shock: That piece is playing right now on Pandora radio. Angela Hewitt is playing.
     
    pianolady, Feb 20, 2014
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  18. rainer

    rainer New Member

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    I know what you mean about this piece being a bit out of character in terms of what you would expect from the baroque. But it's such an amazing piece that it's no wonder it's popular.
    It really grabbed me when I first heard it, and guess where that was. HERE! viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5359&start=0

    I belong to a small chamber music club that holds occasional small informal gatherings in people's houses. I went to one at the home of a nice elderly man who has a harpsichord (but doesn't play it, it belonged to his late wife, who was one of the founders of the club), and since it's nice to take the chance of having a go at a harpsichord, I played this piece on it. He came to me afterwards and said that he had particularly enjoyed it because it had been his wife's favourite, she used to play it all the time.

    An interesting aspect of playing this piece on the piano, as opposed to harpsichord, is that it can (and probably should) sound as though you're using pedal even when you're not - biggemski even had Eddy fooled.

    You don't think Procopio is fast? Well, I didn't mean impossibly fast, but it's a good bit faster than some of the other renditions one comes across.
    Elaine Comparone's (that fearsome-looking woman who always plays standing up) is worth checking out, not only for the slower speed, but also for the way she swings it in places, i.e. uses the notes inégales technique.
     
    rainer, Feb 20, 2014
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  19. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Seems like everybody knows this piece, except me. Now I'm a little afraid to take it on. But the more I hear it, the more I like it.

    I think Hewitt's version was about the same tempo as Procopio, but I don't think she took all the repeats.

    One of my piano teachers when I was in high school used to build harpsichords. He always had one in the studio, so I got to play it a few times. I do however prefer piano over harpsichord any day. I can't take that metallic sound for very long.
     
    pianolady, Feb 20, 2014
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