Favourite Piece outta these by chopin

Yes, I do know that part with the little notes. I've been into this piece for a few days now, and most of it is going fine. I'm trying to be good and practice just this part over and over and it's slowly getting better but it has a ways to go. I don't mind, though, as I still love the music. And a funny thing happened yesterday - It turns out that my cleaning lady also cried when she was doing her job and I was practicing the nocturne. I thought it was because of how terrible I played it. But she said, no, it was the beauty of the music that touched her. I could only say, "I know exactly what you mean."

 

Terez, and anyone else who has an opinion about this: I just played through this nocturne for my teacher yesterday, and he pointed out the complete opposite. I have a Schirmer edition, which supposedly is pretty terrible, full of incorrect markings, etc...My teacher said to get the Paderewski edition which is more accurate. Basically, that diminuendo is a crescendo leading into a fff at the third occurrence. This is the climax. So I just got home from the music store with the new book in hand, and on top of that, I have listened to several recordings of this. All but one of them have it the 'loud' way. So...when I record this, you probably will not like the way I play it, because I'm going with the crescendo. But isn't it nice that here on the site we can discuss things like this?

 

Who is right in this case? I know that Mikuli is a trustworthy source, but this Paderewski book claims, and this is word for word in the book, “ it is based primarily on Chopin’s autograph manuscripts, copies approved by him and first additions."
And here is what it says regarding the measure with the diminuendo/crescendo. “Bar 45 – The French Edition and the German Edition give a long diminuendo sign after f, and the word diminuendo. The Oxford edition, however, adds scrscendo after f in bar 45 and fff in bar 46. In the copy belonging to Madame Jedrzejewics, this crescendo and fff are also written in pencil in place of the word diminuendo, which is crossed out.”

I can appreciate both versions as I play this piece, first one way and then the other. However, the crescendo does seem to make better sense to me as it leads to the reinstatement of the main theme in a final and triumphant manner. And I believe the lead-in to the climax actually begins at measure 42.
As to your question, I don't think Chopin followed any form with the nocturnes. And if he did, the section that you believe to be the true climax is actually a secondary climax. However, I think it is all part of the end.

All in all, I am not an expert here, nor am I very analytical when it comes to music. I just want to play it the best I can. I do appreciate all the information I can get about Chopin's music, though, so if you have any other insights, please don't hesitate to share them.

 

That’s because you are diminuendo-ing.
That c-flat does have a magical sense to it, though. In my book, the measure right after that drops down to pp. And that gives it what I call a ‘goosebump’ effect.

But here is something I found in a book that I don't understand. (Chopin: The Man and His Music)


The companion picture in D flat, op. 27, No. 2, has, as
Karasowski writes, "a profusion of delicate fioriture." It really
contains but one subject, and is a song of the sweet summer of
two souls, for there is obvious meaning in the duality of voices.
Often heard in the concert room, this nocturne gives us a surfeit
of sixths and thirds of elaborate ornamentation and monotone of
mood. Yet it is a lovely, imploring melody, and harmonically most
interesting. A curious marking, and usually overlooked by
pianists, is the crescendo and con forza of the cadenza. This is
obviously erroneous. The theme, which occurs three times, should
first be piano, then pianissimo, and lastly forte.



Do you get that? Is the cadenza that long measure (52) with all the 'little' notes, or the shorter on at measure 60?

My shot is even longer than yours. ( :? , :?: , ) You sound like you know what you’re talking about more than I do. I get into more of the personal life of Chopin, things like how he dressed, the restaurants he went to, the women he associated with, what he said in his letters, etc… But thanks for an interesting discussion on this most wonderful nocturne. It sure isn’t easy to play, and I thought I would have had it down by now, but nope. :x

 

Well, that stumped me for a moment. In my new book (Paderewski) there is no con forza at measure 52, but there is at measure 57. Then I went back to my old book, and there is con forza at both places.

I don’t know anymore. I’m way past being confused. I’m just going to play and stop thinking about it so much. Btw – I did a little more ‘research’ on Youtube (amazing things to watch there)and watched Pollini, Lang Lang, and a guy who looks like a rock star but plays well. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

It’s funny, because I just saw Pollini play this in a concert a couple weeks ago. At the time, I was mesmerized and wasn’t really analyzing anything. I did feel like it was a wonderful performance, but now on this YouTube version, I think he plays it way too fast. Lang Lang, on the other hand, plays it exactly the way I wish/want to play it. You have to get over him floating off into outer space, but his playing here is sublime. Gave me goosebumps all over.

It’s been around 5 years since I read them, along with Niecks two-volume books. I have a couple other Chopin books that I use for a little writing project and whenever I re-read them, I learn something I missed before. I think it’s funny that some of these books are like the editions of his music in that they contradict each other. Liszt says that Chopin’s eyes were blue, but Huneker and Niecks (I think) overruled him and claim that Chopin’s eyes were light brown. Hmmmm.

 

Yes, you’re right – Lang Lang’s rubato is perfect. Better than Rubinstein, who I feel at times drags and pushes the beat too much. I really don’t like rubato so much, but I'm saying that because I only notice it in players who exaggerate it. Sometimes I hear someone trying too hard with rubato and I think, “stop messing around so much and play the damn thing.”
But players like Lang Lang are so subtle (in this piece) that you hardly notice it, but it is there. I think that is how Chopin preferred it.

Overall tempo is another tricky subject. Actually, very subjective. In my own playing, I will play a particular piece very differently on certain days depending on my mood. I know fast means fast, but many other tempo markings aren’t so clear. And I read that Chopin once taught a student how to play a certain piece, and she went home to practice it that way. When she came for her next lesson, he was in a different mood and said that the piece should go another way.

In the Schirmer edition (editor: Joseffy) I have the exact same markings as your Mikuli. In the Paderewski edition I have only dolciss. At the end of 62 and a dim at the end of 63, and no marking at 65.

He must have learned from the Paderewski edition. :wink: But did you hear how he played the LH d-flat an octave lower at measures 46 and 49? I’ve never heard other players do that before, but it sounds nice.

 

I may not be following this right, but I never thought of rhythm as something to be communicated. Too me, it's harmony first, melody second. Rhythm would have to fall under tempo in a way, like if the piece makes me nervous or relaxed. If you have never heard the piece, how would you know if the rhythm is correct. Chopin's music is so full of tiny little nuances regarding rhythm like dotted notes, grace notes, turns, 9 notes against four/50 notes against 8, etc. and on top of that you have rubato. Just like fingerprints, two pianists will not have the same way of playing a piece no matter what the rhythm is. Does that makes sense? I'm real tired right now.

Yes, I have other Schirmer books that are edited by Mikuli.

I wish I could find that 8va in written music, because I'm liking it more and more and want to have something on paper to prove I'm not just copying Lang Lang.

It just occurred to me that we should have all this under a separate thread. Oh well, I guess if other members had anything to say about this nocturne they would have joined in the conversation.

 

Welcome back, Steele. Glad you are going to pick up this nocturne. Don’t hesitate to offer up any more insights or feelings about it.

Now, had to go back and read the past few posts because I forgot what I said.

I don’t know why, but that makes me laugh. I suppose the master players have good days and bad days too. Or…and this is sort of way out there…maybe their playing a certain piece at a certain time went a certain way that they didn’t expect, and they just went with the flow. What I mean is: there are times when I’m practicing something very hard, trying to get it to flow right, and then one day I go into some other realm while playing, and my hands unexpectedly play the line, page, section, etc…perfectly. But my brain is so surprised that my hands did it, that it ruins it by bringing me back and the ‘automatic pilot’ effect stops. Could this be why his rubato changes drastically - he's on 'automatic pilot' at times?

I love this Etude. It is especially magical. I never thought about how you describe when he changes it to 5 against six or 4 against 6 making it a fluttery sound. To be honest, and again, it’s because I don’t know much regarding analyzing music, but I don’t hear a flutter in those passages. I’m more into the way the LH is singing in those top notes in like a secondary melody. I love that. And as far as Etudes go, this goes along with what you talked about earlier regarding Chopin’s use of phrasing and lines. (yes, very, very important), I also love the Op. 10/3. In my book, though, there is no phrase marking over what I hear as a complete sentence (from beginning measure to bar 5). There are little slurs, but I wonder because Chopin wrote long phrase markings in most other etudes. Oh, well…someday I dig into this one again.

 

Maybe this can be the next little project. But I first have to finish the 27/2. I've been practicing it so much that I hear it in my sleep, now. At least it's a nocturne. :wink:

 

She's right.