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Favourite Piece outta these by chopin

Discussion in 'Repertoire' started by Anonymous, Mar 12, 2007.

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Favourite Piece outta these by chopin (the ones included of course)

  1. Polonaise (Heroic) Opus 53

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  2. Ballade No. 1 in G minor

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  3. Ballade No. 4 in F Minor

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  4. Ballade No. 3 in Ab Major

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  5. Fantasy in F Minor

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  6. 1st Scherzo

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  7. 2nd Scherzo

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  8. 2nd Impromptu Op. 36 in F Sharp Major (I'm not sure many of you will have listened to this much, it

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  9. Fantasy Impromptu

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  1. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Yes, I do know that part with the little notes. I've been into this piece for a few days now, and most of it is going fine. I'm trying to be good and practice just this part over and over and it's slowly getting better but it has a ways to go. I don't mind, though, as I still love the music. And a funny thing happened yesterday - It turns out that my cleaning lady also cried when she was doing her job and I was practicing the nocturne. I thought it was because of how terrible I played it. But she said, no, it was the beauty of the music that touched her. I could only say, "I know exactly what you mean."
     
  2. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    There's a technical name for those little notes, but I'll be durned if I can remember what it is. :?
     
  3. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Terez, and anyone else who has an opinion about this: I just played through this nocturne for my teacher yesterday, and he pointed out the complete opposite. I have a Schirmer edition, which supposedly is pretty terrible, full of incorrect markings, etc...My teacher said to get the Paderewski edition which is more accurate. Basically, that diminuendo is a crescendo leading into a fff at the third occurrence. This is the climax. So I just got home from the music store with the new book in hand, and on top of that, I have listened to several recordings of this. All but one of them have it the 'loud' way. So...when I record this, you probably will not like the way I play it, because I'm going with the crescendo. But isn't it nice that here on the site we can discuss things like this?
     
  4. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Go with whatever you like, of course (you won't be the first to play it that way, obviously), but the edition I have two different publications of a Mikuli edition, and I trust Mikuli over anyone else, with Chopin. ;)

    But just a question to throw out there - how can you have a climax, and then an entirely new development of the main them after the climax?
     
  5. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Who is right in this case? I know that Mikuli is a trustworthy source, but this Paderewski book claims, and this is word for word in the book, “ it is based primarily on Chopin’s autograph manuscripts, copies approved by him and first additions."
    And here is what it says regarding the measure with the diminuendo/crescendo. “Bar 45 – The French Edition and the German Edition give a long diminuendo sign after f, and the word diminuendo. The Oxford edition, however, adds scrscendo after f in bar 45 and fff in bar 46. In the copy belonging to Madame Jedrzejewics, this crescendo and fff are also written in pencil in place of the word diminuendo, which is crossed out.”

    I can appreciate both versions as I play this piece, first one way and then the other. However, the crescendo does seem to make better sense to me as it leads to the reinstatement of the main theme in a final and triumphant manner. And I believe the lead-in to the climax actually begins at measure 42.
    As to your question, I don't think Chopin followed any form with the nocturnes. And if he did, the section that you believe to be the true climax is actually a secondary climax. However, I think it is all part of the end.

    All in all, I am not an expert here, nor am I very analytical when it comes to music. I just want to play it the best I can. I do appreciate all the information I can get about Chopin's music, though, so if you have any other insights, please don't hesitate to share them.
     
  6. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    I believe that this question is fairly meaningless, in spite of my strong feelings on the subject. Interpretation will always be just that, and in such a case where the composer is 150 years dead and reputable sources have contradicting opinions, it is up to each performer to decide what is right for them.
    Here is a direct quote from the Mikuli edition:
    I also have a Scholtz edition that agrees with Mikuli on the diminuendo, though I trust it mainly because of Mikuli.
    I would question, certainly, why the original marking was discarded, and by who.
    It's good that you can at least appreciate both. I know I do - when I first started working on the piece, I didn't even notice the diminuendo marking, and simply played it how I wanted to play it. My mom had marked out the diminuendo, as well. It took a lot of consideration for me to appreciate the original marking.
    Can the final statement of the theme truly be considered to be "triumphant", though? It seems rather...reserved, to me. Questioning, even. Especially considering that C-flat in measure 47, which creates a completely new variation of the theme.

    I did misspeak earlier, though, about the calando section, which I believed started in measure 60, which is where I perceive the climax to resolve. The calando isn't actually marked until measure 68, of course.
    The tension starts truly building in measure 36, and it's a beautiful passage, certainly. It just doesn't speak to me as a climax, because it leaves so much unresolved, and I feel that measures 56-60 resolved all the remaining "questions" of the piece, with 60-the end being sort of a reminiscence of the whole ordeal - I know it's odd to put music into words like that, but I guess I can't think of any other way to describe it.
    All of them do have form, and many of them are similar in form, but it is true that they don't all follow a particular form.
    And we're back to interpretation again, which is fine, of course. :)
    I love analysis, personally - it's just a passion of mine. I discovered a love for music theory in college, which of course just deepened my love for Chopin exponentially, as I feel he accomplished, harmonically, what none had accomplished since Bach, and he essentially brought Bach's principles into the 19th century. I used to analyze Chopin in my free time in college, but I don't claim to be an expert, either. Not by a long shot. ;)
     
  7. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    That’s because you are diminuendo-ing.
    That c-flat does have a magical sense to it, though. In my book, the measure right after that drops down to pp. And that gives it what I call a ‘goosebump’ effect.

    But here is something I found in a book that I don't understand. (Chopin: The Man and His Music)


    The companion picture in D flat, op. 27, No. 2, has, as
    Karasowski writes, "a profusion of delicate fioriture." It really
    contains but one subject, and is a song of the sweet summer of
    two souls, for there is obvious meaning in the duality of voices.
    Often heard in the concert room, this nocturne gives us a surfeit
    of sixths and thirds of elaborate ornamentation and monotone of
    mood. Yet it is a lovely, imploring melody, and harmonically most
    interesting. A curious marking, and usually overlooked by
    pianists, is the crescendo and con forza of the cadenza. This is
    obviously erroneous. The theme, which occurs three times, should
    first be piano, then pianissimo, and lastly forte.



    Do you get that? Is the cadenza that long measure (52) with all the 'little' notes, or the shorter on at measure 60?

    My shot is even longer than yours. ( :? :) , :?: , ) You sound like you know what you’re talking about more than I do. I get into more of the personal life of Chopin, things like how he dressed, the restaurants he went to, the women he associated with, what he said in his letters, etc… But thanks for an interesting discussion on this most wonderful nocturne. It sure isn’t easy to play, and I thought I would have had it down by now, but nope. :x
     
  8. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Since the only con forza in the piece is at measure 52, I'll assume that's what he's talking about. Does your edition not have it? All of mine do. Is he saying that it is erroneous to ignore the con forza, or that the marking is erroneous? I would assume the former, but I could be wrong.

    I have read both the Huneker and Liszt biographies, and the Letters, but I honestly don't remember much of it. It's probably time to read them again. :)
     
  9. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Well, that stumped me for a moment. In my new book (Paderewski) there is no con forza at measure 52, but there is at measure 57. Then I went back to my old book, and there is con forza at both places.

    I don’t know anymore. I’m way past being confused. I’m just going to play and stop thinking about it so much. Btw – I did a little more ‘research’ on Youtube (amazing things to watch there)and watched Pollini, Lang Lang, and a guy who looks like a rock star but plays well. Here is the link:

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

    It’s funny, because I just saw Pollini play this in a concert a couple weeks ago. At the time, I was mesmerized and wasn’t really analyzing anything. I did feel like it was a wonderful performance, but now on this YouTube version, I think he plays it way too fast. Lang Lang, on the other hand, plays it exactly the way I wish/want to play it. You have to get over him floating off into outer space, but his playing here is sublime. Gave me goosebumps all over.

    It’s been around 5 years since I read them, along with Niecks two-volume books. I have a couple other Chopin books that I use for a little writing project and whenever I re-read them, I learn something I missed before. I think it’s funny that some of these books are like the editions of his music in that they contradict each other. Liszt says that Chopin’s eyes were blue, but Huneker and Niecks (I think) overruled him and claim that Chopin’s eyes were light brown. Hmmmm.
     
  10. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    In Mikuli, measure 57 is a con fuoco. I don't suppose it makes a great deal of difference, in the end. :)

    I watched Lang Lang first, and I agree that his tempo is about perfect - actually, his "Chopin rubato" is almost perfect, too. Since you've read so much about Chopin, I'm sure you've come across the idea of the Chopin rubato - it is one of the most talked about misinterpretations of Chopin's music. Keep the tempo steady with one hand, feel free to use rubato with the other, don't over-exaggerate ritards and such - very much unlike the free rubato common in his time and throughout the remainder of the Romantic period. You should be able to waltz to his waltzes, and so on. That is one of the first nitpicks I usually have with any performance of Chopin, taking too much liberty with the tempo. And just about everyone does it. It seems counter-intuitive not to.

    That being said, I do feel like Lang Lang's melodies were understated, and one issue of his performance brings up another question - what are your dynamic markings at measure 62-65? In Mikuli, I have fz/p at the beginning of 62, with a diminuendo beginning in the end of 63 and ending with a crescendo in the second part of 65. In Scholtz, I have no dynamic markings in 62, but the diminuendo is marked in the same place, but without a duration specified, with a p in the beginning of 65 (same crescendo in the later part of the measure).

    Also, Lang Lang did seem to pretty much ignore the con forza in measure 52.

    I agree that Pollini played it too fast, and he also took liberties with the tempo, such as his accelerando in measures 38-45, and he seemed to neither crescendo nor diminuendo in our little area of contention, not to mention ignoring the con forza just as Lang Lang did.

    Hmmm, indeed...
     
  11. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Yes, you’re right – Lang Lang’s rubato is perfect. Better than Rubinstein, who I feel at times drags and pushes the beat too much. I really don’t like rubato so much, but I'm saying that because I only notice it in players who exaggerate it. Sometimes I hear someone trying too hard with rubato and I think, “stop messing around so much and play the damn thing.”
    But players like Lang Lang are so subtle (in this piece) that you hardly notice it, but it is there. I think that is how Chopin preferred it.

    Overall tempo is another tricky subject. Actually, very subjective. In my own playing, I will play a particular piece very differently on certain days depending on my mood. I know fast means fast, but many other tempo markings aren’t so clear. And I read that Chopin once taught a student how to play a certain piece, and she went home to practice it that way. When she came for her next lesson, he was in a different mood and said that the piece should go another way.



    In the Schirmer edition (editor: Joseffy) I have the exact same markings as your Mikuli. In the Paderewski edition I have only dolciss. At the end of 62 and a dim at the end of 63, and no marking at 65.


    He must have learned from the Paderewski edition. :wink: But did you hear how he played the LH d-flat an octave lower at measures 46 and 49? I’ve never heard other players do that before, but it sounds nice.
     
  12. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Ashkenazy does the same thing. And he makes me wonder, because there are times when he uses the Chopin rubato perfectly, keeping the tempo with one hand and using rubato in the other. Why can't he do that all the time?
    Oh, I noticed Lang's rubato - he's just skilled enough to keep the tempo and express himself at the same time. (I just wish he had brought out the melodies more!)

    I think the reason why Chopin preferred it that way (or at least the main reason) is that, if you are listening to a piece that you have never heard before, and the pianist is taking a lot of liberties with the tempo, then the rhythm isn't communicated to you, at all. The rhythm is meaningless, except to the person playing and to those familiar with the piece. So much of the beauty of Chopin is in its fluidity, and if you allow both hands to wander together, then you destroy that fluidity. You have the beauty of what Chopin wrote in your head, but you aren't communicating it to your listeners.
    My mom has always played from the Joseffy edition (she mainly uses the Chopin Album, which is Joseffy, iirc) but I think Schirmer has some Mikuli publications, too. Or maybe that was Edwin Hughes? I don't remember...
    I did notice a difference, but I was thinking that he just accented them strongly - I didn't realize he played them an octave lower (probably would have realized if I had played this piece any time recently, which, sadly, I haven't).
     
  13. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I may not be following this right, but I never thought of rhythm as something to be communicated. Too me, it's harmony first, melody second. Rhythm would have to fall under tempo in a way, like if the piece makes me nervous or relaxed. If you have never heard the piece, how would you know if the rhythm is correct. Chopin's music is so full of tiny little nuances regarding rhythm like dotted notes, grace notes, turns, 9 notes against four/50 notes against 8, etc. and on top of that you have rubato. Just like fingerprints, two pianists will not have the same way of playing a piece no matter what the rhythm is. Does that makes sense? I'm real tired right now.

    Yes, I have other Schirmer books that are edited by Mikuli.



    I wish I could find that 8va in written music, because I'm liking it more and more and want to have something on paper to prove I'm not just copying Lang Lang.

    It just occurred to me that we should have all this under a separate thread. Oh well, I guess if other members had anything to say about this nocturne they would have joined in the conversation.
     
  14. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Yes, I know what you're saying, and yes, tempo is (obviously) the root of it. You're talking about the melodic stuff that Chopin likely just improvised in the first place, and this is the stuff that you're allowed to tamper with when you're playing, as you said. But without a strict tempo, the melodic line itself (no matter what you do to it) becomes meaningless. Syncopations are meaningless if they aren't wrapped around a tempo. Melody is both tone and rhythm, after all. But you (perhaps inadvertently) left out two of the most essential aspects of Chopin's work - the phrase, and the line, both of which fall apart without tempo. And the fact that you wouldn't know if the rhythm is correct or not, having never heard the piece before, was sort of my point.

    And of course, there are times when rubato just isn't allowed, at all. Have you ever played the 25/1 Etude? Both hands work together for pretty much the entirety of the piece, and there's just not a whole lot of room for rubato. Six against six for the majority of it, but he introduces four against six in the development which, at that speed, creates a bit of a ... vibration in the flutter that was already present, because rhythmically, the elements contend with each other a bit more. Where before the beat was evenly divided into six, here it is eight, and not quite evenly. Quite a bit more vibration (for lack of a better word at the moment - I'm tired too!) with the rare instances of five against six. The particular places where he uses those fives against sixes, harmonically, is genius.
    I don't suppose it matters that we hijacked a thread that was all about Chopin in the first place, anyway. :) But perhaps simply no one noticed that we were having such a lovely discussion in this thread...
     
  15. Anonymous

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    Yes i noticed this conversation! I am just about to pick up this piece, and it is because you two kind of drew my attention to it a little more, to the extent that i started listening to more recordings. So you have effectively inspired another person into playing it! ;)
     
  16. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Welcome back, Steele. Glad you are going to pick up this nocturne. Don’t hesitate to offer up any more insights or feelings about it.

    Now, had to go back and read the past few posts because I forgot what I said.

    I don’t know why, but that makes me laugh. I suppose the master players have good days and bad days too. Or…and this is sort of way out there…maybe their playing a certain piece at a certain time went a certain way that they didn’t expect, and they just went with the flow. What I mean is: there are times when I’m practicing something very hard, trying to get it to flow right, and then one day I go into some other realm while playing, and my hands unexpectedly play the line, page, section, etc…perfectly. But my brain is so surprised that my hands did it, that it ruins it by bringing me back and the ‘automatic pilot’ effect stops. Could this be why his rubato changes drastically - he's on 'automatic pilot' at times?

    I love this Etude. It is especially magical. I never thought about how you describe when he changes it to 5 against six or 4 against 6 making it a fluttery sound. To be honest, and again, it’s because I don’t know much regarding analyzing music, but I don’t hear a flutter in those passages. I’m more into the way the LH is singing in those top notes in like a secondary melody. I love that. And as far as Etudes go, this goes along with what you talked about earlier regarding Chopin’s use of phrasing and lines. (yes, very, very important), I also love the Op. 10/3. In my book, though, there is no phrase marking over what I hear as a complete sentence (from beginning measure to bar 5). There are little slurs, but I wonder because Chopin wrote long phrase markings in most other etudes. Oh, well…someday I dig into this one again.
     
  17. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    I imagine it's rather because he believes that he's being sparing with rubato, by using it only sometimes (affecting both hands).
    Yes, I love that, too...but whether or not you hear the increased tension in those fives against sixes, it's there.
    The 10/3 was my first Etude (since I learned the easy bits when I was small). I have never heard a recording of it that makes me happy.
     
  18. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Maybe this can be the next little project. But I first have to finish the 27/2. I've been practicing it so much that I hear it in my sleep, now. At least it's a nocturne. :wink:
     
  19. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    My high school piano teacher used to tell me, emphatically, that nocturnes were not lullabys. She said they were luv songs. ;)
     
  20. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    She's right. :)
     

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