Thank you to those who donated to Piano Society in 2017.

a little test

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by pianolady, Jun 30, 2009.

  1. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    I agree at hundred percent!


    Thank you very much, David. I´m glad you like my editing. The only small problem is, that most of us would have to play like Artur Rubinstein for making them sound like him. :wink:
     
  2. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Pianolady wrote:
    Always at your service, Monica, I´m your employee and you can command me. 8) However, I´m sure, that Didier is much more competent than me. BTW, Didier and Monica, I´m also using Wavelab (version 6.0). Didier, how did you manage it to bring Monicas and your curve into one picture?
    Your experiment is very interesting and we all can learn a lot from you here! I love topics like this.

    Monica, I have added to my previous version some noise-reduction and reverberation, so I could get rid of the hiss and it´s sound much better now.

    Here is the fft-display of my new edited version. What´s your opinion, Didier and Monica?
     
  3. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Hi Pantelis,
    thank you for these very interesting links. I will take the time to read it all in every case. That will be definitively a very interesting lecture for my holidays. :D
     
  4. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Oh, Andreas - you're getting me a little excited! 8) :lol:

    anyway - your editing job on the above file sounds very good to me. I've noticed in my case, that I can take a file of mine that is in wav format and run the low pass filter through it, and then amplify the whole track a little and it then sounds good. But then when I convert it into mp3 it sounds terrible to me. I thought it may be just my computer, so I made a bunch of sample files this morning and transferred them to my ipod, but they still sound bad. The sound is wobbly and fluttery.

    How did you get your mp3 file to be clear?
     
  5. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Pianolady wrote:
    Nothing else was my intention, of course. 8) :lol:

    Uh, I have no special method for this. I just convert my wav-files (recorded with 96 Khz and 32 bit float) into mp3 in Wavelab and what you hear is the result. But the mp3-format is always a gross reduction of quality, because the file-size is made so small. It´s evident, that a lot of sound-quality always is lost, so I can imagine, that certain editings, which sound well in wav-format don´t any more do this in mp3-format.
     
  6. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Last Name:
    Brest
    First Name:
    Didier
    Andreas, I am using Wavelab 5. So I'm at one competence step under you! :p
    To get two superposed spectra, perform a first analysis, click on the camera button at the top of the spectral analysis window and perform a second analysis.

    I think that your editing would sound better from the above take. The atached mp3 is an alla Andreas editing from this take. :wink:
     
  7. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Didier, I don't know why, but I hear a lot of wobbling on this one. I am betting that you do not, otherwise you would have said something about it. But I just don't get why only I can hear it. Andreas- do you hear any distortion?

    Although, Didier - you and Andreas have succeeded in eliminating the hiss that I always get on my recordings. But I may have solved that issue as well with this low-pass filter. It takes out the hiss, but also lowers the volume of the whole track. So then I have to amplify it. My trouble happens next when I then convert it to mp3. Have to do some more experimenting...
     
  8. s_winitsky

    s_winitsky Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    toronto
    Last Name:
    Winitsky
    First Name:
    Stan
    Hey Pianolady,

    This sounded good to me. I am of course no expert on mics and recording, and perhaps it’s not my place to say, but I did notice the sound if the piano is relatively low compared to the sound of the noise.

    Not that I heard lots of noise but is it not possible to adjust the audio levels of your edirol so the sound of the piano is much louder compared to the noise? Forgive me if this is an ignorant question.

    I can only think of an analogy, when guitar players attach their guitar to an amp, they put the volume of the guitar as high as possible, and adjust the volume of the speakers lower to avoid noise of the speakers or recording device.

    At least one nice thing about the under the piano placement of your mics, the sound of your piano was somehow louder compared to the sound of the noise? Anyway I find the topic kind of interesting.


     
  9. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Hey, Stan (and please call me Monica)

    So...really? You do not hear any wobbling at all? On this last one that Didier made, I hear it most clearly right around 0:16. Also at the end.

    And the piano sound is low only because I had the recorder on a low input recording level - something like 12 or 13. I should try to go higher but I worry about clipping.

    Well, even though I am as baffled as ever, thank you for your input.
     
  10. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Hi Didier,
    thank you for answering my question and for the "alla Andreas"-editing, but I think, this one has so much wobbling (sorry, I don´t know the right English expression for what I mean, I German we say "die Aufnahme eiert", "eiern"). My editings don´t have that. I really don´t know, what you have done with the eq or reverberation. What is the reason for this?
     
  11. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Last Name:
    Brest
    First Name:
    Didier
    Monica and Andreas,

    I understand wobbling and eiern (with the help from an on-line German-French dictionary). But I do not hear such an effect by comparing my editing and the original take. :?: :?
    Did you hear that also in my first editing with only EQ ?
    It might come from the reverb, which is not necessary here. The better is the ennemy of the good. (*)
    That's not so important with respect to the initial question from Monica: under or above ? I think that one can achieve better editing, hopefully not wobbling, from the above take. :)


    (*) Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. Voltaire
     
  12. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Didier, in regards to your 'above piano' file with only EQ - I hear a little distortion, but it is much less than the one with the added reverb. So perhaps adding the reverb is what caused the more pronounced wobbling. Seems that the more you fuss with equalizing/editing things, the worse the file becomes. Hence, my goal is to get a decent-sounding recording that has not too much background hiss, but with minimal amount of editing.

    Regarding my original question about 'above' or 'under' the piano - I probably will stay with 'above', since I think there is less editing needed. Except Andreas did produce a good sound with that 'under' the piano file. I dunno...I feel like I will never be sure about this stuff.

    But thanks to you and Andreas for all the help. I always learn so much from our smart members! :)
     
  13. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Didier wrote:
    No, I did hear it only in your last editing. I truely don´t know, what is the reason, that I do hear it and you don´t.

    Oui, le mieux est l´ennemi du bien. C´est juste en quelque cas et principalement c´est un mot sage, je pense. J´espère que je n´ai pas fais un faut concernant mon francais ici. :roll: (Translation: Yes, the better is the ennemy of the good. That´s right in some cases and generally it´s a wise saying, I think. I hope I haven´t done a mistake concerning my French here. :roll: ) But I never have made the experience, that the addition of reverberation in Wavelab has caused such a wobbling (Eiern). So, Í find that to be strange somehow.
     
  14. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    I-ay ust-jay ad-hay nother-ay idea-ay. (since you guys are speaking French so nicely - thought I'd impress you with my pig latin :lol: )

    Anyway, do you think the actual program could make the distortions? I one time added some bass boost to a recording with Audacity and the result was that same fluttery/wobbly sound. Andreas - you are using a different version of Wavelab than Didier, right?

    Another thing - could the actual computer be the culprit? My computer is having a few problems - is it possible that a computer could harm the file?
     
  15. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    sorry, it's me again. I was just outside listening to some music and a question popped into my head.

    Is it possible to record yourself with an input level that you know is too high and will peak out? And then with an editing program you can de-amplify (is there a word for that?) (I guess - lower the volume is what I mean). I'm wondering this because when I listen to various recordings, I hear the background hiss only when I turn the volume up high. But not always! It must be because if the recording was recorded at a higher input/volume level, then one does not need to turn up the speaker volume and hence does not get the hiss, right? Maybe that's what I need to do, which leads me back to my question here. So has anyone ever experimented with this - can you record with a too high input level and then bring it down with a program and it sounds good?
     
  16. s_winitsky

    s_winitsky Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    toronto
    Last Name:
    Winitsky
    First Name:
    Stan
    I have played with this on digital recordings when using a poor sound card.

    I crank up the volume on my keyboard as high as possible, and minimize the line in volume on the sound card mixer as much as possible. You can actually see the hiss disappear graphically (kind of neat.)

    I assume the same could be done with your microphone by simply moving it in just a bit closer.

    I am told the cheaper the microphone, the closer it needs to be to the sound source to remove hiss. I think though that each microphone or speaker should advertise its noise to sound ratio (for example 100db, 55 db etc.)




     
  17. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Good points, Stan. However, I have also found that it depends on what system you are using when listening to the files. Earlier on, when I was just getting started with all this, I had no clue about mic placement, input levels, applying reverb, etc...and I got all different kinds of sounds, but it all sounded ok on my computer speakers. I was shocked, though, when I had burned some recordings onto a CD and listened to that CD on my home stereo and then also in my car. What a huge difference in sound!!

    As to moving the mics closer, I have tried that too. On a few recordings I put my Edirol almost directly on the strings - actually on a board that I had resting on the metal frame and the Edirol positioned centrally. The result was a very tinny sound. Sure, it was clear but didn't sound very good. It's better to have the mics at least 2 or 3 feet away from the strings, I think.
     
  18. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Last Name:
    Brest
    First Name:
    Didier
    A kind of philosophical debate. In 1900, near two centuries after Voltaire wrote his famous maxim, Jules Renard wrote as an opposite
    The better is the enemy of the bad only.

    I think that Jules Renard might be righter than Voltaire...Especially at our time when the original meaning of Voltaire's maxim, looking always for the better is an obstacle to the happiness, has been deviated as a business management maxim: doing better than good enough is spending time and money.

    So let me try to do better: :roll:
     
  19. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Hi Didier,
    yes, this version sounds really very good, very clear and blanced. Have you reduced the reverberation?
     
  20. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    France
    Last Name:
    Brest
    First Name:
    Didier
    I guess that the difference comes mainly from additional narrow EQ attenuations of the two or three highest peaks between 100 and 300 Hz. Muddiness comes often from this frequency band. This additional EQ improves clarity and makes more audible the lows, EQ boosted around 80 Hz. Also because I was suspecting the mp3 compression in Wavelab not being so good, I used Lame at a slightly higher rate. I did not change significantly the reverb.

    Also, as in my previous version, I put the piano, too on left for my taste, closer to the centre by removing the first 5 samples on the right channel.
     

Share This Page