Video Chopin Ballade g minor

Yesterday I tried a video recording of the Chopin Ballade g minor. Unfortunately, still many slips (especially in the middle part, but not only there :roll: ). Maybe you enjoy nevertheless.

Warning, it is VERY large (180MByte), every attempt to shrink did not work, so sorry for that huge file. If anyone knows a freeware program how to shrink down, let me please now, so that I can replace it by a smaller file.

I recorded the audio part with my usual equipment in parallel to the video recording, in order to achieve better audio quality, and merged both video and audio files together.

I appreciate every comment, and hopefully anytime I post a better quality mp3 recording of that ballade.

Edit: added AVI-File, needs much less disk space but I don't know whether it works on every PC?
Attention: used ending ZIP, because it is not allowed to attach an AVI file. So after downloading, please change the ending from *.zip -> *.avi (don't unzip!)

Chopin - Op.23, Ballade no.1 in G minor

 

An internet explorer window pops up (as normal) but then I get this:

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Thank you much for taking the trouble to download and to comment, Monica - I will try to shrink it down and replace so that it is more acceptable for downloads.
To be honest, really happy and proud I am not - too many slips and wrong notes, and that after so long time working on that piece.

The thing with this rallentando part is that it is encapsulated between two pianissimo parts after the 2nd theme, and before the 1st theme repetition. So instead playing "sempre diminuendo" (how to do that after playing already pp ?) and "rallentando" I played just the opposite - tried a climax before it goes back to pp again. So indeed it was done by intention, even if it is against the expression markings. Maybe, even with a louder climax there I at least could try a "rallentando", will try out how it sounds.

I am wondering too . Thanks for pointing out, somehow because of the demanding lh part I did not listen good enough to the rh there. Task for the next homeworks... It is in the weakest part of the recordings, I think - I messed up also in bars 135/136 and rh bar 153. :roll:

Agree, I did not followed the ritenuto /acceleranto markings there, the low chords could come slower, the high notes faster.

Thank you for your comments, I know that you play that ballade by heart yourself too, and also looking forward to your take on that!

 

Respect! I can't and don't want to give you much of a critique because I'm not at your level. I have to admit that I like this ballade much less than the three others, but you play it very, very beautifully! Don't mind the technical errors, they aren't disturbing.

Only two suggestions: You could play the opening lento bars a bit more freely because they feel a bit literal now. And you could also leave more space between the virtuoso runs at the end. Each of these are a surprise because everyone who doesn't know this piece would expect the final chords instead. But I know things are always different when the video camera is on. This must be even more straining than an audio recorder!

Keep up your good work, I'd like to hear more of you.

 

Hello Olaf,

I like this performance. You have a nice smooth tone. Very suitable for Chopin. You are able to bring the melodies to the front and let them "breath". And i like people with the courage to show their piano performance on video!

The slips seem to be concentrated in and around the "jumpy" passages, where a lot of vertical movement is going on. In the video i can see that you find it difficult to maintain the normal relaxation in those passages. But these are technical issues that are probably more suited for another thread.

And of course i cannot resist in discussing your bodily posture. Allthough you have your bench at the lowest altitude, being such a big fellow forces you to curve your back to get your fingers in their propoer position. I think you should enable yourself to erect your backside by sitting lower! Shall i borrow you a chair?

Greetings from Peter Schuttevaar.

 

Thank you, Jan-Felix and Peter, for your comments!

Jan-Felix, thanks for your kind comments on my piano tone. I think you are entirely right, more space between the final runs (is connected to what Monica already mentioned), and maybe also more rubato in the beginning section would sound nicer.

Yes, especially the passages with lot's to do in both hands, I normally need to concentrate always on the left hand and hope that the right hand does the job itself. With more or less success however. But really, it is not easy to maintain the normal relaxation in some of the "killer" spots. Even in videos from Professionals one can see that they leave there relaxed stage on those spots. But I got your point, also from your video, that relaxation is something very important, have same opinion about that.

Hehe, if using a chair it must at least make that squeaking noise the chair from Glenn Gould was known for :lol:
But you are right, I am also not happy with my bodily posture. The bench is in lowest position but I can't get my knees below the piano or I have to spread the legs instead holding them upright. I already thought on putting some pieces below the piano legs, already 2cm could help. Don't like to reduce the bench legs because my legs would be angled down what I don't like either. Problem with lifting up the piano is that the pedals come up also, but 2cm or so are tolerable maybe.

But can also not resist to say another point regarding lowest tonus on hand wrist and therefore playing with hands clapped down on the hand wrist as default position. I spoke with my wife who is physiotherapist and she said, beside that the right/left movement of the hand is limited or impossible in that position, there is another disadvantage: the upper sinews for the fingers are already prebended if the hand hangs down. Therefore it is difficultier to raise the fingers in that position - and even difficultier if you like to curve the fingers and like to raise them. Therefore, playing with straight hands as default (but of course not stiff wrists) is preferable from the hands anatomy - and most professionals play that way, I think.

 

Download?

I couldn't download it. The first one said "corrupted or invalid file," and the second one downloaded for about 15 minutes, but then I couldn't get it to play.

 

I think you did a very good job Olaf and even though there are some slips, it is nothing major. Most important, you really catch the musical line and mood very good and should be proud of yourself for this performance. Can I hint a slight relief in the end when you hit the final chord after the demanding runs and octaves?

I believe that AVI-format should run for most people so I did put up this version. Divx-players and WinAmp support avi-formats and these players can be dowloaded for free.

It is up on the site.

 

Hello Olaf,

I tried to verify your partners position on the bended wrist, making it more difficult to lift the fingers. I could not verify it. Only in a very extremely bended position of the wrist, i noticed that lifting of the fingers became noticably more difficult.

Apart from that, the lifting of the fingers is of vastly lesser importance then the downward motion. The only requirement is, that lifting the finger does not create tension. That reguirement can be satisfied in various positions of the wrist. Also, i discovered that you don't need a lot of lift. Just up to the hilt of the black keys.

I also tried to verify your position on a bended wrist having lesser freedom of movement. I could not verify this either. For me, a slightly bended wrist has even more vertical freedom of movement than a straight wrist. Again, it seems that there is no general rule for this.

Then to the slips. In your video, they occur when (mirco) activity of the fingers has to be combined with (macro and vertical) activity of the arm. This means that the coördination between the two types of movements is insufficient. There are various pieces of Bach that have this impossible need for a continious coordination between macro and micro movement (take the Echo of the French overture as an example). You can use these pieces to improve that type of coordination.

At last, the altitude issue. Why don't you just try and sit a bit lower for a while (in order to be able to stretch your back) and see if it works for you? If it doesn't, you can always return to your current altitude.

Yours,
-- Peter

 

Thank you Robert, for putting up and for allowing the AVI-Format. I for sure will try to work further on the ballade, also with the given hints in mind, in order to present also an mp3 file with hopefully less slips.

I can't resist to tell also, that the existing mp3 file of that ballade sounds like about half tone too high in pitch. It is very unlikely that the piano was tuned half tone too high, and normally a piano detunes that the pitch decreases instead increases. That too high pitch can easily occur if it was taped and played back with different analog recorders. If playing back in correct pitch it is about 9:00 long instead 8:28. Nevertheless I find that recording really great, and played with full of passion.

Hehe, yes, big relief because the probability that I survive the presto part in a decent manner is not that high up to now, unfortunately the middle part did suffer, what annoyed me and therefore I did not look too happy...

If I put my hand flat on the table I can move the hand to the right and left. If the hand hangs down on the wrist, this movement is not possible anymore - I can only rotate the forearm but not this mentioned movement. However, this is exactly the movement large arpeggios like Chopin Etude 25/1 need. Have you tried to let the hand hang down while the hand is rotated to the right or left? Already after some degrees of hand lowering one is forced to take that rotation back. The wrist construction does not allow that.
So, to make it short and sweet, if the hand hangs down on the wrist to that degree I see in your videos, you reduce the flexibility of the hand compared to a straight hand position. It can well be, that it does not matter for the music you play however, but a Chopin etude e.g. is another thing.

However I agree with you that the point with less lifting finger possibility is also not that very difficult in my case when the hand hangs down, so maybe what the anatomy atlas says is one thing but a proper developed piano player hand another thing. So I agree with you that this is maybe not of much importance. The other drawback with missing hand flexibility remains however, and that is a k.o. criteria do play in that hand hang down position for me.

Regarding the slips in my video, they occur on different places, will not say totaly randomly, but unfortunately not always on same places. Probably I simply need even more practise, also slowed down practise, on those difficultier places. But will have an open eye on your mentioned micro/macro movements.

But sitting in a lower position does not solve my problem that I also like to have the knee below the keyboard instead before. Because the knee height remains the same. I only can put the piano higher or dig a hole in the floor or reduce my lower legs :lol: . I think first I try to put the piano higher.

 

Ballade

Thank you, Monica. I downloaded it to my desktop and listened to it. Olaf, it was beautiful. Bravo! You played it very sensitively. It was obvious that you had carefully studied this work and were cognizant of what you were doing in every passage. I followed along with the score and found nothing to quibble about. I've only read through this piece slowly, but never seriously studied it so I can't provide any constructive criticism. Just give yourself a big pat on the back for accomplishing this. Bravo again!

I'm hoping to discover a way to see the video also, but so far I haven't.

 

Hello Olaf

You say....

Well, it might seem strange to you, but this mechanism does not work for me. Left/Right freedom of movement for my hand is not influenced negatively by a hanging hand. So i don't recognize the mechanism that you describe. Perhaps i have a more flexible joint there? Another thing is that i had a look at that Chopin etude 25/1. For me, this etude does not need a lot of rotation. So we have an interisting difference between us here.

If life doesn't get to busy, i would like to sumbit a video of the Brahms rhapsody in g minor and satisfy your curiosity about wrist movement and a lot of dynamics, since it seems that you are challenging me to show that type of piano playing.

Greetings from Peter[/quote]

 

John, many thanks for your warm comments! I sent you a pmail, hopefully to help to get the video to run.

To Peter:
The right/left motion I mean, is really not possible anymore if your hand hangs down. Of course you can move your hands right/left netherveless, however the ellbow/arm rotates. I speak about horizontal hand movements while the ellbow and arm does not move. The term for the movement goes something like "radialduction" or "ulnaduction". If you would move your hand downward while the hand is bended inwards (towards the thumbside) you would break your wrist. Complete freedom of all dimensions is NOT possible if the hand hangs down.

I don't challenge you, you can do whatever you like. However if you start to spread your theory about a better hand position as what is common sense, I never would get tired to tell the danger I see in this. Maybe there is some truth in that what has developed through the ages, derived from experiences of the best pianists, from what sparetime pianists like you and me can learn?
I will not exclude the possibility that new approaches regarding hand positions are possible, however that extreme hand hang down position as default sounds not convincing (to me) because it reduces the hand flexibility (and body weight support for playing "deep" in the keys, already discussed) .

I don't want to stifle this interesting discussion about hand holding but it would be better placed in another thread in the technique section. So if you like to proceed that, I propose to discuss that there further.

 

Hello Olaf,

You are turning the discussion upside down.

- Firist of all. It is not me who poses a theory. It is you. You tell me that a wrist should be in such and such a position, and that it could otherwise not function properly. I merely hold the position that human anatomy differs to much from the one person to the other to make such general claims.
- Secondly, you are suggesting that i am reluctant to learn from the great pianists in the pasts. That is way out of order. If there is one thing that i have learned from these great pianists, it is that one should celebrate creativity, diversity and individuality and not hide behind common sense.

But OK, let's call it a day for now and continue the discussion elsewhere. As i said, i will upload my little booklet in a few weeks time.

Greetings from Peter.

 

well done Olaf. I am back and this is my private collection. I will show my familiy/friends on big screen....

thank you again....

 

Hey congratulations for recording such a difficult work like this ballade!!! You should be very proud of yourself.

Theres two things I would like to comment on:
The opening should be played in forte, in my edition it is marked F peasante.
In slow sections you should play in perfect tempo (no slowing down or playing faster unless its indicated), this is really important.

But congratulations again :!:

 

To Peter: Now I don't comment anymore here, wait until you pose your theory as text document to discuss that in another thread.

Thank you John and Hunwoo for listening and commenting!

Hunwoo, in my edition only the first note is marked f, and then it starts p, and so I tried to play.
I like the idea from Monica, that the first bars should give an outlook of what comes in the ballade. That means, it could probably have more passion and larger dynamic range, maybe also more rubato instead strict tempo, what was commented here too.

Regarding tempo, I think most people don't play in strict tempo, neither the slow nor fast sections, at least what I heard so far (Cortot, Rubinstein, Zimmerman etc.). Maybe I am too liberate in tempo, but often I heard I could also apply more rubato. But for sure, I will remember your words and try to keep tempo better on those places which seem appropriate for that. Thanks again for your comments, all that helps to improve!

And I am looking forward to your take on that, you wrote that you work on that ballade too, and with your brillant technique, especially what you showed in your Chopin Etudes, you will set cornerstones on that famous piece, I am sure!

 

Uch ! My Windows Media Player does not want to play this. Says it's missing a codec, but of course not which codec ... that would be too easy I guess :x And QuickTime, despite pretending to know about MPEG files, announces that this is Not A Movie File. I wonder what the heck it is then, if not a movie file.

[ot][rant]
Why is is that software programs will hardly ever tell you exactly what the problem is ? I've been in programming for about 20 years and it never ceases to amaze and annoy me.
[/rant][/ot]