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That 2-layered rubato thingy

Discussion in 'Technique' started by musical-md, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I'll just beat Chris to it by stating that I didn't know that attitudes could worry. :wink:

    Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please :) respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

    Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

    I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:
     
  2. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

    Are you not saying this:

    "I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

    I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

    I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.
     
  3. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.
    Eddy - I think I've got a mazurka to show you - played by Rubinstein. At least I remember hearing him do rubato quite clearly. Now I just have to find the recording. Be back later....
     
  4. alf

    alf Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Speaking of reflexives...
     
  5. alf

    alf Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?
     
  6. alf

    alf Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Only if you are a metronome. In those passages LH actually is a tempo as humanly (and still musically) possible. RH shapes delicately the melody "around" the LH. I find it so fresh and irresistible. You don't hear anymore that style today (and yesterday either).

    Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.
     
  7. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Richard, YOU'RE MAKING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT, and I don't have hardly any left. :!: If my question is whether a single pianist can (not may) do a thing or not, it makes no difference to me what an ensemble can do?

    Sigh.
     
  8. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thank you Monica!
     
  9. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me? But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music). :)
     
  10. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Sorry, Eddy. For some reason the Rubinstein videos on Youtube won't play for me. I don't know why, they used to....
    You'll probably have better examples with what the other members are showing you anyway.
     
  11. alf

    alf Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Sure I can, but I won't do it. I'm not selling anything here.

    You see, Eddy, you brutalized this thread and you cannot even understand the very basic terms of the issue. Furthermore, consider this: why did you unintentionally mispell my name (which is in signature to every post of mine)? And why did you unintentionally miss that Saint-Saens recording? I suspect that you don't read the posts you reply to, am I wrong? This could explain why you then make up irrelevant examples like the previous Mozart and Beethoven ones. Or childishly scramble the letters of a sentence to prove who knows what.

    And here again, your speculations about contrametric rubato are made on the whim of the moment, you clearly don't know what contrametric rubato is.
     
  12. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    :lol: :roll: Whatever Alfonso.
     
  13. hanysz

    hanysz Member

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    I feel as though every time one of your points is answered, you just go ahead and move the goalposts. I thought you wanted to know whether famous pianists do this nowadays in concert performances. There's absolutely no doubt that it's possible. (Twentieth century composers have asked pianists for much greater independence of hands.) I can record a few bars of a Chopin nocturne for you right now, if you promise not to move the goalposts again!
     
  14. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Alexander,
    I am glad that you didn't write me off. I am bothered (mildly) that you think I have changed the terms of the discussion when I have tried repeatedly to limit the discussion to my issue (repeatedly defined), against a tsunami of singers, styles, ensembles and historical (forensic) evidence. My question has always been about what I have re-expressed just recently in clearest fashion (I think). I would truely be honored if you would demonstrate this. (And I think other inquiring minds want to know.) Do pianists today (or even of the 20th century, including the golden era of the virtuosos) perform this way, or no?

    Regards,
    Eddy
     
  15. hanysz

    hanysz Member

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    You shouldn't feel too honoured. This is a hastily made home recording. It displays neither beautiful performance nor good sound quality. But I hope it demonstrates the thing we're talking about.

    I'm attaching four takes of the beginning of a well known Chopin piece. Take 1 is as close to being strictly in tempo as I can manage. Pay attention to the ornament at the beginning of bar 2. For my taste, the turn sounds hurried if played without rubato. Take 2 is with rubato as it is usually done, allowing a little extra time at the start of bar 2, with hands remaining together. Take 3 is my impression of the rubato that Mozart, Chopin and others describe: the right hand takes extra time and catches up later, while the left hand remains in strict time. Take 4 is the same sort of rubato exaggerated to a ridiculous extent, to demonstrate what is possible.

    You'll notice that take 4 is a little faster and louder than the other versions: I was rather tense while doing this. I had four practice runs before recording the final version. It would probably take another twenty goes to get it feeling relaxed and completely in control. I'm not saying it's easy to do this, but it certainly is possible.
     
  16. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Pay attention class! :!: THIS is what I'm talking about! :p Alex your descriptions are exactly what I perceived after listening BEFORE reading them (I went right for the download). I almost laughed out loud as I heard take 4, fearing that you might hurt yourself. :lol: Thank you very much! You have given me (and very likely others) aural insight to a lost performing practice of mythic character. Now be honest. Is this not the first time you have ever done this kind of rubato? Maybe not, but this was the first time I have heard it. Now if anyone else wants to start a seperate thread on the aesthetics and philosophy of this kind of performance practice, you can ... but it won't be me :)

    Alex, I hope you had a great recital on the 3rd (Bach/Szymanowksi)!

    Regards,
    Eddy

    All's Well that Ends Well

    Edit: changed spelling of aesthetics
     
  17. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I was under the impression they were musical instruments used to play music by musicians. Maybe I am mistaken. :roll:
     
  18. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    And I am saying, if you (or I) cannot, does that follow that no one else can? This is what I am saying! And do keep your hair on, please! :)
     
  19. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    No longer the question of evolution but the evolution of the question... :roll:
     
  20. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    A pianist is one person with one head, and two violinists have two heads which means you have two heads working out their playing style instead of just one pianist (and his one head..haha). That's what I mean by being a lot different.
     

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