Tempo Rubato

I was wondering what your opinions are on the concept of tempo rubato. Some believe the left hand must be kept in strict time, to avoid the manipulating the rhythm etc. I personally think that the left hand does not need to be kept in strict time so long as the rubato is not too over the top. I hear people being criticized for not keeping the left hand in strict time, yet their interpretation can often sound better because of it. Their may be history behind it, but i think keeping the left hand in strict time with large amounts of rubato in the right hand can ruin some of the harmony and distort the entire feel of the song (from some recordings ive heard.)

 

I see a lot of discussion on Rubato around May 27-28 in the Repertoire section of the forum. It's in a section near the top called, "Poll: Favourite piece outta these by Chopin".

I have my definite opinions on EXACTLY how Rubato should be done effectively, but will keep mum for a change :shock:
N

 

I know its in that other topic thats why i kinda moved it to here, because it got me thinking-it is certainly a part of a pianists technique. I would really like to hear everyones opinion on the matter, just because someone knows more about musical history, it does not make their opinion any less important

 

The thing is, that particular sort of rubato is specifically a Chopin thing. It was his nitpick, and it doesn't apply to the rest of the Romantic period. Just Chopin. This little segment (link) from Huneker's biography (pp. 195-7) has a great deal to say about Chopin's preferences concerning rubato.

Chopin himself said:

Mikuli says:

Liszt says:

Another pupil of Chopin's, Mme. Friederike Streicher, neé Müller, says:

So, decide for yourself, I suppose.

I should hope not.

 

I wonder whether Chopin would have the same opinions today though. He was certainly progressive, and for all we know may have changed his opinions in his later years, where he himself began to push the boundaries of the pure classical music that he was initially so honorable to. I do believe that excess rubato to the extent of distortion is terrible, i just think it sounds worse when the left hand is kept the same IMO. Slight affections etc. i think sound great, and that is slowing the left hand if only for a moment. I do think certain pieces like the waltzes do require strict left hand rhythm, just not pieces like Chopins first ballade for example.

 

According to the Eigeldinger book with original citations from contemporaries we find conflicting statements. There are people who wrote that Chopin used that kind of rubato what Terez quoted. Other wrote that Chopin took much more liberty and could not keep rhythm (that wrote contemporary musicians too).

Could it not be that Chopin did use several kinds of rubato? E.g. for his Mazurkas it is stated that he changed the 3/4 rhythm to something like a 2/4 rhythm (I think Meyerbeer wrote that). Maybe for other pieces (waltzes maybe?) he used strict left hand rhythm and a free right hand part (something I find extremly difficult to achieve, and only rare examples of pianists who use(d) that only occasionally like Cortot e.g.). This fits well with the predilection of Chopin how opera singers acted. And what do singers? They normally start soft, and slightly prolongated with their melody and stop also slightly prolongated (normally). Maybe that's what Chopin did foremost too, who knows?

But what is common in all statements is that Chopin did never exxagerate, it sounded always naturally and easy, and this should hold true also for his rubato playing I guess- and we only can guess, and read contemporaries quotations about that, isn't it?

 

Thank you for that, Monica!
But can anyone translate the above sentence, please?

 

I have read that some said this about Chopin. It was apparently a common critique from the classicists, who did not use rubato at all.

 

So what i can summarize from this so far, is that Chopin may have used rubato either freely, or perhaps for particular pieces. The main thing though is that he never exaggerated to the point of distortion...which i think is many peoples main gripe with the use of rubato.

 

First, even if a musician don't play rubato itself one could trust that this musician is nevertheless able to observe rhythm treatment from another musician. So I don't see no reason to not trust those statements too.

Second, the kind of rubato with steady rhythm in one hand and liberty in melody line, is no invention from the romantiques like Chopin. I have read elsewhere that Mozart could and did play in this manner too (but can't point to a certain book where I have read that). And to go even more back in time, in the baroque time the "stylus phantasticus", was based on a performance with complete liberty of rhythm (see Matthesons definition of that style in "Der vollkommene Capellmeister" from 1739).

So, beside that it seems not true that preromantic musicians did not use rubato at all, I don't see no reason to disqualify statements from contemporaries about Chopin's playing style even if they don't fit the picture the one or the other likes to have about Chopin's playing style.

 

It's in the Huneker biography - right at the top of the page that I linked.

 

Ah, I did not found the link in your message at first sight, thank you for that link to the Huneker biography! Although I have a lot of books about Chopin, this one is new to me. I need to read it! The thing about the Mozart rubato style I must have read in another Mozart biography, but I don't know which book it was.

 

Yes, it's hard to make links obvious on this forum - they look almost the same as the other text! That's why I put (link) trying to make it more clear, but it's apparently still easy to miss.

Google Books previews are great, but unfortunately you can't copy text from them, and there are only so many pages that you can preview. I ordered the Huneker biography and the Letters from Dover not too long ago, but I don't think they have the Liszt biography. I found the Huneker biography to be more interesting, anyway.

 

Thank you much, Monica!
Just downloaded all three books - and your links in your message are really good visible, too!

The only thing to clarify is now, how did Chopin played his rubato ... :?

For me, there exist several kinds of rubato executions, and all have there eligibility.
However, at least I would be really interested to know these your definite opinions about the exactly and effectively rubato execution!

 

Yes. I would love to know them...

 

I heard Horowitz say that he always employed rubato to play Mozart.. he said that was the only way?

All for a musical reason...

 

Yeah, I noticed that about Horowitz's Mozart, a habit I emulated for many years (much to my teachers' consternation). As I mature, I increasingly refrain from using rubato when playing Mozart, esp. those composed in style galant (Horowitz really pulls the rhythm here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oQzp_-N6IUs. ) Through my studies of Mozart, I feel rubato is unnecessary for the most part. Sometimes, rubato can be a powerful tool in the Classical repertoire but we must use it so subtly.

Pete

 

You have made my point.. or my Piano teacher's point. I must be the only one who needs a little Rubato to take Mozart.. at least a little 'musical interpretation'.