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strength and stamina

Discussion in 'Technique' started by claudiogut, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. PJF

    PJF New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Personally, the lighter the action is, the better.
     
  2. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Putting additional weights on the keys change not only the pressure to hit the key. It changes also the weight at which a key goes up again.

    But much more important, it makes the thing more tenacious because of the added inertia. But who likes to have a more stringy action? In my opinion, putting additional weight makes more trouble than that it helps. Also for very soft playing, I can imagine that additional weight is counterproductive.
     
  3. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I have to add, that mentally concentrate on the touch that you have to imagine that your arm/body natural weight is droped(contacted) to the moment of sound projection to the the keys. This requires a certain of relaxzation in muscle and your reflex. By all means, speed is genertated thru relaxzation. Once the key is stiked(fallen)-relax.

    In piano playing, 80% (estimate) is your natural weight and 20% is muscle power. You will expore this thru a period of slow "natural falling" practice. TRUST ME>And thanks for reading.
     
  4. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    You are completely right IMHO. But what has this to do with your proposed idea to put additional lead in the keys to make them heavier than normal? The drawbacks of this are higher than the benefits, so I see it.
     
  5. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    [
    In piano playing, 80% (estimate) is your natural weight and 20% is muscle power. You will expore this thru a period of slow "natural falling" practice. TRUST ME>And thanks for reading.[/quote]

    You are completely right IMHO. But what has this to do with your proposed idea to put additional lead in the keys to make them heavier than normal? The drawbacks of this are higher than the benefits, so I see it.[/quote]

    I suppose, that add a bit more power on that "20%", more resevation the better. But again, only a little extra weight.

    You must come to play my piano when you visiting australia. :lol:
     
  6. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    You are completely right IMHO. But what has this to do with your proposed idea to put additional lead in the keys to make them heavier than normal? The drawbacks of this are higher than the benefits, so I see it.[/quote]

    I suppose, that add a bit more power on that "20%", more resevation the better. But again, only a little extra weight.

    You must come to play my piano when you visiting australia. :lol:[/quote]


    one last last very important thing that people always get CONFUSED.

    There is no such thing as total relaxzation or no tension at playing; but rather an art of EASE OF tension on playing. This is something we all have to master and explore thru .......

    remember..ease of tension...
     
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Work on the Chopin Etudes. Absolutely builds endurance!
    Randy
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I read an article on the internet about using the "gravity drop" technique. It involves using gravity to play forte passages with the arms and hands. I've never used this technique myself because it would take too much time and effort to "re-learn" piano playing with this technique. Also, I'm afraid I'll be learning something that might give me some bad playing habits. The author stated that using gravity with the arms and hands increases stamina with long performances. Has anyone used this technique before or believe it is effective?
    Randy
     
  9. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    yes, I further improved with op53 and refine the gravity -weight technique..and it worked. another reduction in tension....so as other chopins etudes. Its an fine art...........to master this technique...
     
  10. Terez

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    Chopin's 25/1 and 25/12 Etudes are also great for building strength (or force through coordination!) in both hands.

    The 10/1 Etude is really only good for the right hand.
     
  11. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    this is the law of physics force =mass X accleration. We can not denied that.

    Mass is the main factor-weight of arm and body.
     
  12. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    And really, the 25/1 and the 25/12 Etudes are great to use in conjunction to build strength in the hands and arms, because the 25/1 calls for delicacy, while the 25/12 calls for ferocity, mostly. They work different muscles, I think. Both of them will leave your arms and hands aching at anything close to performance tempo unless you're really in shape - in other words, either is a really good measure of exactly how strong your hands and arms are.

    Likewise, the 10/1 and the 10/12 are good to practice in conjunction with each other - one builds the right hand, and the other builds the left.
     
  13. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I am wondering a bit whether really strength in the hands and arms is needed to play those etudes 25/12, and especially 25/1 in performance tempo. At least for 25/1 I think absolutely relaxed and tension free hands and wrists (for the rotary wrist movements the arppegios in both hands demand) is needed, and the task is to maintain this relaxed stadium also at faster speeds. Strength is something what is more needed to louder pieces, but 25/1 is normally treated as a soft but fast played piece.
     
  14. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    As I said, the 25/1 is played delicately, but the constant fast motion of the fingers, not to mention the rolling motion required of your hands, the pivoting of your wrists, the constant accent required of your right 5th finger, is very taxing on your muscles unless you are in shape. I played the 25/1 for a competition in high school, and even when the competition came, I was still aching after playing it at performance tempo, from cramps in my hands to aching forearms. But I never practiced for hours a day like I should have - usually an average of two hours at most - so I wasn't really in shape for it.
     
  15. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I played (and posted) the piece too. Can also not imagine that playing it very often in a row is useful - cramps it what should be avoided ultimately, I think. Not only that it is no good for the technique, with cramps one never can play soft and lyrical. But force will not help, strength - I dunno. Maybe endurance?
     
  16. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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  17. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Sorry if I wasn't clear - I wasn't trying to suggest force, as you seem to interpret it, as an approach to playing the 25/1 in any way, only that force can best be achieved through coordination, and that of course it helps to have strength, and that the 25/1 and the 25/12 are good etudes for building strength. And yes, endurance is a good word, but the definition of endurance in this case is intrinsically linked to strength. I think that you guys are translating the word "strength" into some idea of forceful playing that I did not in any way mean to imply.
    That was precisely the point, though - the Etude, at that time, served as a judge of the strength in my fingers and forearms. I didn't practice enough to build the strength necessary to play it without fatigue. Which brings me back to the first post made in this thread. If you are used to playing on lightweight keys, it simply follows that you will have to build the strength in your fingers and arms back up again with a switch to weighted keys. Anything that employs a constant workout of your fingers/wrists/forearms will be beneficial, whether the exercise is delicate playing or ferocious playing. The various techniques that can be employed to avoid fatigue are pertinent, of course, but they don't negate the benefit of general strength-building exercises.
     
  18. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    [quote by terez
    I didn't practice enough to build the strength necessary to play it without fatigue. Which brings me back to the first post made in this thread. If you are used to playing on lightweight keys, it simply follows that you will have to build the strength in your fingers and arms back up again with a switch to weighted keys. Anything that employs a constant workout of your fingers/wrists/forearms will be beneficial, whether the exercise is delicate playing or ferocious playing. The various techniques that can be employed to avoid fatigue are pertinent, of course, but they don't negate the benefit of general strength-building exercises.[/quote]


    Thanks for your honesty. Now you have backed me up of my ideas of "adding weights to keys(38g) " as suppose to stregth training for the last 12 years. (I know Olaf does not like my idea)And 2 weeks ago I removed 14 gs. Just want to see the difference.... Well, perhaps I get use to it...it seems not much effect at all but a little more feel on keys as compared to before. a little more speed.
     
  19. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    I can understand a reluctance to add weight to keys. When I play on lightweight keys, I feel out of control, and though I can pull off some fast passages with less effort, I have more of a tendency to make mistakes. But just the right amount of weight to build more strength and flexibility in the fingers without creating a vast difference in feel as compared to a normal piano keyboard - I can't imagine that it wouldn't be helpful.
     
  20. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Another really good etude for strength and flexibility in the left hand is the 25/6 etude. I've never worked this one up for anything serious, but I did manage to work it up to perhaps an acceptable performance tempo in my spare time, once. I found it a lot easier to play many, many things after working on that etude.

    Hmm, I just noticed there's no recording of it. I might work on that one, too. :)

    Edit - just saw that there was a complete set of Etudes at the bottom of the Etude page. :shock: I might do it anyway. :)
     

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