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Scriabin Op. 8 N°12 and the Sustain Pedal.

Discussion in 'Technique' started by Teddy, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Michael, I just want to say that I really enjoy your posts! :)

    (And can you please tell me how to channel Chopin?)
     
  2. camaysar

    camaysar New Member

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    Aryobrand, as I suspected, it's mostly semantics.

    or immediately after feeling discomfort?

    This is exactly what I have been saying all along. We are both talking about overexertion. What you call pain, I call transitory tension, which is a normal part of technical development and super-repetitive daily practice. Perhaps that is what Teddy meant (remember Teddy? :eek: ). My concern about his post was his statement that he "works through it even though it hurts". I stop as soon as I **begin** to feel it. I don't think, "ah, here comes the good pain... I'll keep going for another 10 minutes". What Teddy said sounded dangerously close to that. My only uncertainty about his post was about knowing when to stop. Does he really? Do we? I believe, as you also believe, that working too long even while experiencing this non-traumatic tension can become damaging. I "err on the side of caution" (is this a new Piano Society stock phrase?) and stop. I still have trouble with your "2-hour pain limit" :? But, I'm me, not you.

    Yeah, I can be hyper-serious when I'm not being idiotic (you may think "at the same time as ..."). Thanks for the balance!! Your introduction made me laugh out loud!

    By the way, what happened to your hand? You mentioned Bartok. Can you describe the cause and symptoms? I'm very interested.

    James
     
  3. aryobrand

    aryobrand New Member

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    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

    Part of my point was that sometimes I just work through the pain as well. For example, when playing through an entire book at one sitting of Czerny or somesuch, about the sixth through eighth exercise through I will end up looking for passages where there is no right hand motion just to shake out the tension from my right hand while continuing to play the left hand. Same for the other way around if it's my left hand that's beginning to experience transitory tension. I know from past experience that this technique is HIGHLY risky, but due to previous experiences I can pretty much gauge if the level of tension is TOO high to continue or not. If I sense that there is just too much tension at that moment I will usually stop for one-half hour to an hour, then return to practice if I feel up to it. Like I said above this technique is HIGHLY risky, and I should know better by now, but ... ah, well.

    I probably had developed such a high pain threshold from my previous studies into body-building, back when I was much younger. Through the techniques of working out (in a gym), I came to notice the different levels of pain that one experiences. This is why even though I was trying to avoid using the phrase "working out too hard without stretching first", I finally could state my point in no other way. You get a feel for what the muscle is doing when you work with pushing them to their limits. Although I would never even THINK of pushing the muscles of my hand to those kind of extremes ("strip sets", "Haney burns", etc), the fundamental conscious feeling of muscular tension is still present. Obviously someone who has not had a lot of exposure to long hours of muscular pain might have some difficulties in gauging the level of tension, i.e. as to its recoverability or otherwise; and therefore the best policy should remain "err on the side of caution".

    Well, the cause of this temporary injury was my own stupidity. :oops: The background for my stupidity was working on a piece that I had never played before "Allegro Barbaro" by Bartok. If you're familiar with it he varies the intensities considerably at one point going from a pppp to a f sff. The trouble that I had was that I had never really done a lot of work with as many octaves and wide intervals before, and so naturally the muscles in my hand were not up to the task of playing this piece "fully" yet. In a rush to try to get a recording out, I pushed myself way too hard and coming down on a sff, my right hand just went ZAP like an electric shock almost. Being "inspired" at the time :roll:, of course I kept going to finish the song (like a total idiot), then when I finished I didn't really feel the pain that much. Owing to my previous experiences I knew that I MUST stop at that point, and ended the practice session with lots of hand massage and stretching. I thought everything would be fine, but for about the next two to three months every time I tried to play anything above a mf with the right hand I would receive a shock of pain. It's back to normal now (or what can be thought of as normal for me ;) ), so I usually don't have much trouble and I count myself very, VERY lucky. :oops:

    Because of that incident I will NEVER even sit at a piano bench with out slowly stretching out the muscles in my hands and shaking out any tension that's there, ... although sometimes I still do love a marathon session. 8)

    Love is the law, love under will.
    Aryobrand
     
  4. aryobrand

    aryobrand New Member

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    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

    Hey Monica, and thanks!

    I recall that you've asked this question before and wasn't sure if you were just joking around or if you were serious or not. I've actually thought of answering this question before, but I'm just kind of unsure of how to answer. I'm definitely NOT ignoring you (although it might have seemed like that due to the non-response), I'll just have to try to think about how to answer.
    .
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    For me ... I have to work myself into the proper trance-state for at least a month before doing any kind of deep spiritual work with visions or converse with the spirit world. You see I live somewhat of a double life, much of the time (and unfortunately MOST of time recently) I have to maintain the intellect-centred 9 to 5 mentality just to be able to interact properly with the 9 to 5 type world. In order to get into altered states of consciousness (where such experiences take place) takes some preparation. 666 (Aleister Crowley) often said "Enflame Thyself with Prayer", and that gives a good general idea of how to reach the first stage. As to the subsequent levels, I'll have to think about how to explain it more deeply, as, if I tell you just to call them forth, it probably won't mean to you what I mean it to mean, you know what I mean? :? Fortunately for me, and oft times unfortunately as well, I've had and received visions and glimpses into the other worlds since I was a little boy, and that also includes sometimes seeing the spirits of the deceased. Many times the rest of the family are off at a funeral due to a death in the family, but the deceased is actually sitting with me talking, wondering "Why are they all so sad, it's great over here."

    At least for me, there's usually no need for sacrifices and graveyard fieldtrips, although the fieldtrips can be fun, too. :wink: Let me ponder the question a bit and think if I can explain it later in better terms... Sorry for not being of much help. :cry:

    Love is the law, love under will.
    Aryobrand
     
  5. camaysar

    camaysar New Member

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    Hi aryobrand,

    Your description of your injury - how you got it and its effect - is the most valuable part of this whole discussion.

    By the way, we have another common interest. I collect old manuscripts of practical kabbalah, mostly in Hebrew, and some Arabic. I've read Crowley on gematria, etc. I forget the book... is it "777", or is that just a part of it? He explained the commonly-used techniques of letter manipulation. I read Eliphas Levi, Papus, Waite, Mathers, etc. (some earlier writers) as a teen, but my interest in "Magick" turned to traditional "Magic" - the semitic variety. Now I collect and translate books of segulot, refuot, kameot, etc. as a "hobby". Here's a couple of pages of a manuscript in my collection, from late 17th - early 18th century Europe. The content will doubtless look familiar to you. I also compose and write amulets (kame'ot) on parchment for people.

    Nice to meet you, and be careful out there!

    James
     
  6. aryobrand

    aryobrand New Member

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    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

    Alas... I feel that we are of opposite schools ...

    [​IMG]

    No matter, ... if we both love Scriabin. :)

    Love is the law, love under will.
    Aryobrand

    P.S. I've also added some other information under the "Composing" sub-forum in the Thread entitled Scriabin's Harmony
     
  7. camaysar

    camaysar New Member

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    Well, we've certainly made a beautiful webpage together!
     
  8. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Wow – I am just blown away here. Both of your interests (Michael and James) are very interesting! :wink: :lol: I’ve only dabbled in some of these things for a project I was working on but have always felt that if I had more time, I’d like to study it more.

    Michael – I am serious. I just wasn’t sure if you were. I’ve read books and things and attempted to go into that ‘special’ place in my mind so that I can ‘receive’ visits from certain people, but I lack patience and more thorough knowledge of how to actually get into that state of being so it never worked. And I’m sure I would faint if Chopin actually did come to me, but I’d be ready for him the next time. So if you think that you could possibly write down some instructions which I could try, I’d be very grateful. I am most of the time very bored with my everyday life so I could use the diversion. It’s ok if you think I am being ridiculous and there is no chance that it could work for me. But if you do, then perhaps you may want to continue this conversation in private? You can email me or send me private messages here on the forum. Whatever you want is fine with me. But I just thought of something else: When Mozart visited you, were you able to ask him questions? You know where I’m going with this….you connect with Chopin and then read him the list of questions I’ve given you. :D
     
  9. camaysar

    camaysar New Member

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    See my post there. (And I knew you would recognize the ms. page with "angel writing".)
     
  10. Lukecash

    Lukecash New Member

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    My god, i'd just like to give both of you a hug. You know we could just start a topic in the general section about babbling religions. We could pull our hair out, wet our pants with laughter, and maybe even scream blasphemy while clutching garlic!(Oh dear god, do i love garlic...)
     
  11. camaysar

    camaysar New Member

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    Hi Lukecash,

    Sorry if I sounded overly-critical back there. I was just putting forth my views relative to yours. But I know we can be sensitive online, myself included! People, through their posts, can really make you feel bad, so I try to avoid doing that. But one cannot always predict another's reactions. Here's a big hug! :D

    By the way I also love garlic, but love blasphemy even more!

    James
     

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