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Pet hates

Discussion in 'General' started by techneut, May 12, 2011.

  1. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Richard66 wrote:
    That´s also a right notion, but in a certain way he has preworked for the Nazi-ideology.

    But some of Wagners theses were directly and personal against Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, he considered as an enemy. So, I´m not surprised Mendelssohn felt attacked.
     
  2. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    And even apart from his huge influence on other composers, some of his tunes, and the way he presents them, are just irresistible, at least to me. The Tannhauser and Meistersinger overtures, the Walkurenritte, the Siegfried Idyll - great music and pure genius, however much I dislike his wearing of silk underpants and his bottom-licking attitude with to his superiors.

    Many things from the Nazi period are just as aesthetically pleasing as anything else from that time, and I would not condemn them just because (but neither would I buy them just because). Actually I find some of Hitlers' paintings quite pretty (even though they are not great art by any standards), and would not hesitate buying one, provided it was not more expensive than the usual price I'd pay for an amateur painting :D
     
  3. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    I hear that Hitler was fond of Chopin. Of course, he might have just sought out the Jew-haters. :roll:
     
  4. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    He was very fond of Wagner too, and very fond of his dog. You'd almost start to think he was halfway human ...
     
  5. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I agree at hundred percent to that. But my favorite opera by Wagner is the "Parzival" and the best music he ever has written, is the motif of Parzival, "der reine Thor", which is in a pure and simple c-major. For me this is may be the only place Wagner has shown us, that there is a bit more than obscure ideology in his soul and mind. (As we know Parzival is a seeker of the Saint Grail, that means also he is seeking for God and the pureness.) But from that pureness Wagner seems not to have the faintest idea in most of his other works! :roll:
    If you compare them with the oratorios by Mendelssohn, "Elias" and "Paulus" f.ex., I only can say, that - just judged from the music itself - in Wagner we have something like the devil and in Mendelssohn we have the pure angel. So, also the music seems to attest to the mind and character of their composers.

    I see you are trying to separate the things themselves from the mind of their "creators" and I respect and appreciate that in a certain way! It´s an interesting point of view.
     
  6. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Well, everyone knows that. :wink:

    That, I didn't know. But it's not surprising that an dictator would like a dog. If he had loved a cat, I'd be surprised.

    (See, you managed to make it about pets after all.)
     
  7. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    The most funny thing is, that "Puky" is a label on the bycycle of my son (I suppose, it´s a name of brand or so), and Chris made me considerate to the meaning of that name in English :lol: . I somehow spontaneously thought, in the context of Wagners ideology this wordplay could be of an adequate use. :twisted: You see, I´m not only creative concerning music. :lol:
     
  8. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.
     
  9. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    And his whiny-ass behavior and treatment of Liszt was deplorable!
     
  10. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    The ancient Hebrews were also not producers of art, the Bible and the Temple excepted.

    Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?
     
  11. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I remember a book I once read (written in the 1930s, before the War) where there is a chapter called: The Monster and here a most obnoxious character is described. After one like him as much as much as the late Bin we are told it is Wagner who is being described.
     
  12. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:
     
  13. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Absolutely. It's very much to Liszt's credit that he put up with Wagner's incessant demands for money, etc, in the knowledge that subsidising his lifestyle would be for the greater artistic good.
     
  14. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.
     
  15. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    But he was half-French, so maybe he is worth only 2 Poles? :wink:
     
  16. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    :shock:
     
  17. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Yeah, that's a rumor, but as far as we know, it's untrue. A few biographies address the rumor. I need to get this book so I can see how it was refuted. It's not that I care - I would actually think it pretty funny if he was part Jew, and Chopin himself was always referring to his nose - but I'm pretty sure it was just a rumor that somehow became accepted as truth. It might have been a Polish attempt to mitigate the things Chopin said about Jews.

    lol. There were also rumors that Chopin's French father was actually the bastard son of a visiting Polish aristocrat. It was really believable, since the province of Lorraine was overflowing with Poles at that time, exiles from some political trouble or another (I forget which). The local governor was a Pole. That's how Nicolas Chopin ended up moving to Poland; he traveled with the steward of the local count to Warsaw to find a job (and to escape the turmoil brewing in France). But unfortunately, that rumor was also addressed in the above book. Apparently bastards were quite common, to the point that a bastard child would be marked so on his baptismal certificate. Nicolas Chopin was apparently pure French. (Though now that I think about it, I somehow doubt that the bastard children were regularly borne by married mothers - that seems like it would have been less socially acceptable. So maybe Nicolas really was half-Polish - they say that he encouraged that rumor himself! - which would make Chopin 3/4 Polish. But recent biographers treat it as a soundly refuted rumor.)

    And no one cares much about Chopin's French ancestry since he was raised in Poland and saw himself as a Pole. They say he spoke French (relatively) badly and with a harsh accent until his death.
     
  18. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Back to pet hates...I was happy to see that Chopin had made the banner again, until I saw the Alberti bass.
     
  19. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Complain, complain, complain.... :roll:
     
  20. In-Flight Piano

    In-Flight Piano New Member

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    Some styles of classical music that I don't like listening to:

    Solo Flute
    Solo Violin
    Harpsichord(for some reason, it just has a "dark" sound to me that is only partially covered up by lively pieces)
    Attempts to re-interpret classical compositions with pop arrangements.
    Modern classical music that is full of dissonance.
    Bach played on banjo

    Although I don't hate the stuff on the list, I would much rather hear other things.
     

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