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Liszt - Consolation V (retake)

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by johnmar78, Dec 22, 2006.

  1. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I spend several hours on this recording and listen to it back and forth as to be my own critic.

    and this is my final submission :lol:

    I would like to thank Liszt for this hell of a technical challenge!
     
  2. PJF

    PJF New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I'm not overly familiar with the score, so I'm fairly unaware of any note/rhythm errors. I like the way you voice the left hand. Unlike your first submission of the consolation Nr. 1, this performance was not dry or uninspired. Musically, it's pretty good IMO. I still have this gnawing feeling that you can even it out a bit. In terms of 'atmosphere', the beginning was excellent , I kind of lost it in the middle and got it back towards the end. I liked it.

    Do I hear some thematic fragments of Liszt's second consolation towards the end?

    PF
     
  3. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Johnmar, I think this was nice, but I will tell you the same thing that people have been telling me. Your firm touch makes it sound like you are too much no-nonsense. I am guilty of the same thing. This piece screams with want of gentle rubato and touch and smooth pedalling. Perhaps it's time to pour a little wine, again? :)
     
  4. PJF

    PJF New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Grand Marnier works well, too!

    Pierre
     
  5. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Re: Liszt consoliation V

    That is well played, with melody phrasing too. But I agree with Monica, think of a singer who sings the melody. He/she will voice every phrase even stronger, and with a bit rubato (amount is matter of taste of course). That is a very lyrical piece and you could try a bit more to let the piano sing. There are some places where the RH trioles have a dotted rhythm, you could make the rhythm stronger (it tends to be "normal" trioles instead). But beside this, this Consolation is confident and in good quality played.

    Ok, just another one version of spelling... :lol:

    If it would be an Etude at which one could practise a year long, that's what I would call a great hell of technical challenge... I will not make the technical difficulty smaller than it is, but it seems well manageable within not too long time. I don't expect that you took very long time on this piece, didn't you?
     
  6. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Final submission ? Hehe, heard that before... Overall it is not bad, but you can do much better than this John, and really you should do. If only for the couple of glaring mistakes in here, which really are not necessary in such a technically easy piece. I think you are trying to record things too fast, and that you may be underestimating a seemingly simple work like this. I hear lots of rhythmic problems, and many places where you press ahead rather unsensitively (rubato is more about holding back than with rushing ahead). There is no 'consoling' atmosphere here as yet. You should
    feel, when playing these Consolations, that they are the most beautiful things in the world ! At least that is how I always feel them. With the feeling, the rest will come - you could do it for the first.
     
  7. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Obamanation, unfortunately...

    Take it from me, never ever underestimate a simple piece. That's why I haven't submitted anything for the past two months. These one page pieces are a bear to pull off.
     
  8. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Well, sure, you are right. It's the best approach to feel it for EVERY piece one is just playing. But that is something everyone should finger on his own nose and ask itself honesty how far one is with this approach on the current piece. Not only for the Consolations. One should treat every piece as a jewel and try to let it shine. However I don't know of anybody here who is perfect in that approach (deductive from the audible result) beside some very rare professional players. But I agree that this is the best approach one could take for the current piece, in other words: to LOVE it.


    And I agree with both of you, Chris & Juufa, seemingly simple pieces are not simple at all to play it in convincingly manner.
     
  9. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    hoooooooo, merry christmas to every one.

    no worries, this one is a nonconventional melody, study in 9h tengths all that liszt's crash notes..discordant...its one of may favourite, he tried to torn my hands apart :lol:
    I loved this weired melody when since i was a child.

    I have listened to some professional playings, I noticed they struck the firs beat of every bar...fairly strong...which makes me to think is that the right way of "dolce" ? In my version I have tried to soften the first beat and not to "overpowered" like some professional. I dnt mean to compare with them but just my observations. Go to the List site and listen to con5. And tell me what you think???
     
  10. robert

    robert New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I think you did pretty well and even though there are moments that I feel need more attention in terms of phrasing and dynamics, it is all over a nice performance.
     
  11. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Liszt consolation v retake

     
  12. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Re: Liszt consolation v retake

    Now, that is one lofty goal ... This better be good :lol:

    It's much more controllled and poised than the previous. No more ugly rushes but still a couple places where the tempo seems not in control (as opposed to your usage of rubato, which you generally do fine, even though it could be a bit more). Overall, it does not yet sound as if you really love the piece and get carried away by it, more like you just go through the notes carefully. Some assorted remarks:

    The dynamics sound a bit flat, but that could be due to the recording so don't take it as criticism. I know well how hard it is to get your dynamic contrasts into the recording.

    I wonder about your execution of the appoggiaturas in bar 2 and similar. You play them on the beat, rather slowly, with the accent on the small note, which sounds strange to me. But perhaps this is a common practive, I am not sure.

    The melody in the RH should shine out a bit more, it is too soft compared to the LH (or perhaps the LH is too loud).

    You have not quite got the hang of two-against-three, these occur a lot in this piece and they sound very unsure, especially the ones with the dotted note in it. You do not seem comfortable with triplets in general, maybe worth spending some time on ?

    This piece clearly consists of a number of different sections and you should do more to make that apparent. Specifically, sections start at bars 12, bar 22, bar 32, 39. Always take a bit back at important moments, or when harmony, theme, or atmosphere changes. Don't play straight through it as if it's just more of the same.

    Lastly, let me give you the dog's ear treatment and point out the mistakes:

    - Bar 10: You don't play the C# in the LH
    - Bar 15: In the middle voice you play a D# and then a D natural which should be D# too. Ugly !
    - Bar 35: First chord, you play an A instead of a B, then on the 2nd beat you play E natural
    instead of E# (just like in bar 15). Also, you miss the C# in the dotted third. And the dotted
    triplets are not good. Frankly, I'd have started over after this bar.
    - Bar 40: The top RH note should not be repated on the 2nd beat
    - Bar 41: Last RH note is an A, not a G#
    - Bar 43: Last RH note is missing
    - Bar 45: Not sure what you do in the LH but it's not right..... And you don't play the first RH B.
    - Bar 46: The LH C# is missing
    - Bar 53: The top C# is missing or inaudible
    - Bar 55: First top RH note is G#, not A
    - Bar 57: Ditto
     
  13. robert

    robert New Member Piano Society Artist

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    It is better than the first recording but you must begin to study the score better. I would recommend to take out the score and play it through very slowly with one hand at the time and you will discover what Chris pointed out. It should hopefully not be too hard to learn and you are pretty close to a very nice performance!
     
  14. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Re: Liszt consolation v retake

    [
    I wonder about your execution of the appoggiaturas in bar 2 and similar. You play them on the beat, rather slowly, with the accent on the small note, which sounds strange to me.

    Professionals played before the beat, mine is much slower and rather on th beat. You are right on that. I am aware of that too.


    Lastly, let me give you the dog's ear treatment and point out the mistakes:

    - Bar 10: You don't play the C# in the LH

    so what I do, with the score marked LH first C# from memory.

    I better go ome and check wit the score again(i am at internet cafe), your ear is unbeleivable and I thought I got all notes right??? I better check again.
    Thank Chris.

    I better send you some more ear plugs next time//// :lol: :lol:

    i better check again..
    -
     
  15. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Re: Liszt consolation v retake

    [Right, Chris. i went home and checked again. And I was right about my playing that I dnt generally play the "wrong notes" but rather "missing notes."

    And I trusted your ear first but?????????????

    Now, dnt take this as intrusive feed back from me. but this time some of you pointed out mistakes are YOUR OWN faulty out of tune ears. :lol: :lol: :lol: or my score is wrong?

    See below:


    - Bar 10: You don't play the C# in the LH ''' but my score marked first lh note c# on the LH'

    - Bar 15: In the middle voice you play a D# and then a D natural which should be D# too. Ugly !

    No, I played it D# twice...your ear is out of tune. For third time I listened next to my piano.

    - Bar 35: First chord, you play an A instead of a B, then on the 2nd beat you play E natural
    instead of E# (just like in bar 15). Also, you miss the C# in the dotted third. And the dotted
    triplets are not good. Frankly, I'd have started over after this bar.

    I played it b not A(because its ackward fingering to play B.-try it youself.
    The second beat I played it E# no e natural.

    - Bar 40: The top RH note should not be repated on the 2nd beat

    I am wrong on this, You score a point. :lol:

    - Bar 41: Last RH note is an A, not a G#

    I played it right. Your ear is out of tune. come on Chris....sorry.


    - Bar 43: Last RH note is missing

    Yes, I playe it too soft and did not come out. you score it again. :lol:

    - Bar 45: Not sure what you do in the LH but it's not right..... And you don't play the first RH B.
    - Bar 46: The LH C# is missing.

    Yes, I playe it too soft, it did not come out on recording. Another point scored by :twisted: you.
    - Bar 53: The top C# is missing or inaudible
    Same reason as above :twisted:

    - Bar 55: First top RH note is G#, not A

    I played it right, your ear is out of tune....I swear again....
    - Bar 57: Ditto[/quote]

    I played it right, but with little rit towads the last three bars(ending).



    So, after all, I felt much better, apart from few mising notes(played it too soft) and bar 2 -appogs I Should I do it aagian
    or just leave it?
     
  16. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Re: Liszt consolation v retake

    Now I pulled out my old score and started to check again. After checking the first two things in bar 10 and bar 15 I have to say that Chris is entirely right.

    Of course your score marked first LH note c# on the LH, because it is c#. The thing is only, you did not play it!!!

    Now, bar 15. I just played it on my piano. That strange chord you play in the 3rd 8th sounds exactly this way if you play a D natural instead D# the second time, that's the truth.

    At this stage I decided not to check for the other things Chris pointed out.
    I never found anyone including my piano teacher who was that precise as Chris is in pointing to reading mistakes.
    You better think deeper and start investigations about every point before grumble back.

    Say what? I decided for myself that before I submit a complex piece next time I will go to a professional and ask for help regarding reading mistakes. I know now that I tend to get reading errors without noticing, so better ask someone for help in order to make the thing better.

    In your case it would help too. There is nothing bad in taking lessons or asking for listening before a submission, just the opposite. Some need maybe help in finding tasteful and deep expression, some need help to get all the notes rights. That there are some notes missing or wrong in a really difficult, long or complex piece however, I think that nobody will raise the sword and accepts the achievement netherveless.
     
  17. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Ok johnmar, it must be my faulty ears then - as well as bad eyesight and rotten scores :roll: I'm not going to argue about it - this is not about scoring points. I gave you my feedback (which it seems I just as well might not have done) and you either use it or you don't. Maybe next time I should save myself the time and just say 'nice played'. If that will help.

    Whether you re-record this or not is entirely up to you. I have no problem putting it up the site as it is.
     
  18. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Hope everyone enjoyed Christmas!
    Sorry, Chris, I misread you feedback on bar 10. I didn't mean to grumble; I am really grateful for all the time everyone has put in to listen to my recordings and for giving me honest feedback - it's ok to be brutal with me. Honest! :) I look forward to your comments about any of my recordings.
    - J
     

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