Thank you to those who donated to Piano Society in 2017.

Is this possible?

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by pianolady, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,927
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    How that we are on about your English, Andreas, when discussing audio matters you often write "attitude" where you should write "setting". And you always write "eve" instead of "even" and there was something else I can't remember. I guess correcting others' spelling and grammar is as important as picking out wrong notes :p :lol:
    Next time I write "probbaly" instead of "probably" again, someone please let me know. It is terribly persistent.
     
  2. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Techneut wrote:
    You still have told that onetimes to me and since you did it, I have consequently changed and always wrote about "settings" (see in this topic f.ex.). :p

    Oh, thanks, that is new for me. So, we all should play even, when it is eve, isn´t it? We´ll probably better sleep then. :lol:

    Oh,but that´s quite mean now. If you can´t remember, there was nothing. :wink:

    Well, you are the master of picking out wrong notes here. I´m just your shadow concerning this ability, so I don´t feel to much spoken to. :p :lol:

    O.k., o.k., I will remember you. :twisted:
     
  3. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,927
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    Oops, I don't remember having brought that up before :oops:
     
  4. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Techneut wrote:
    I believe, this was in the topic, in which I explained the equalizer-function of Audacity to Monica.
     
  5. alf

    alf Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Piemonte, Italy
    Last Name:
    Bertazzi
    First Name:
    Alfonso
    Here I am with the secondo part:
    http://rapidshare.com/files/198864286/R ... t.rar.html

    Andreas, I've recorded separately bars 1-32 and 33-end because you may want to edit it again the cut between bars 32 and 33. While re-listening to my track, I realized that in bar 26 there's an almost inaudible note (a C#). Luckily you play a lower C# at the same time, and in the mixdown this flub is covered up. But if you hear it and want me to redo that section, I'll redo it.

    Now, the dirty job (but someone has to do it :lol: ): find the faults! IMO There are three big things that should be corrected/improved: the audible hiss at Monica's entrance and, from a general point of view, all the levels (Monica's part is possibly too loud in bars from 34 to 45); the wrong A's natural at the end of bar 23 in Andreas' part (damnit I got aware of the error only today); and lastly, the bad edit at bars 32-33. I think that we can make it without redoing any recording, but with an amount of extra work on Andreas' side (and Andreas won't be happy). Also, one minor problem is that there is a discernible tempo change at bar 33, but that's not really serious to me. Andreas, Monica, tell me what you think about it.

    For the impatient among you here’s a sneak peek of the result of our united efforts:

    http://rapidshare.com/files/198867084/r ... t.mp3.html

    I am sure that Andreas will tweak it to make it even better.
     
  6. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,927
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    This sounds very nice already ! It is good that I said this would be impossible to pull off, because of course that made you all even more determined to do it.

    I did not notice any of the flaws Alfonso mentioned, these are the kind of things you only hear when a) you know the piece and b) you are listening out for it. True, the balance could be different at times and the synchronization is not always perfect, but not much worse than would be in a real 6-hands recording, where the same things would happen. If there were any wrong wrong notes, they did not sound as such.
     
  7. Rachfan

    Rachfan Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    2,152
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chief Operating Officer, retired
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Last Name:
    April
    First Name:
    David
    I'm looking forward to the final mix. I was one of the skeptics on this project, so if this works well, I'll be very happy about it and for everyone involved. If successful, it would be nice if there were a way to give it lasting publicity, as this kind of virtual collaboration might be a first. Maybe the Guinness World Records? Why not? Beating it would take a quartet at least. And the higher the number of participants, the more the variables mitigating against success. Who knows, this could go unchallenged! Or, if a more modest effort, perhaps a write-up to go with the archived recording?

    David
     
  8. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Hi Everybody,

    I've been gone most of the day, and still tonight I am unable to sit long at the computer. But I have a lot to say about the latest version (thanks for putting it up, Alfonso. I am even more teary-eyed!).

    Tomorrow I will have much more time, so first thing in the morning I will comment here. Andreas - don't do any editing until after that, please.


    Never noticed your 'probably' typo, but since you're probably looking for some input, remember I fixed you once before - the 'up' thing. Seems that it didn't stick, though. PM me if you don't know what I'm talking about, but you probably do.
     
  9. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    O.k., friends, I will wait for Monicas suggestions with the final editing until tomorrow. I agree to all your remarks, Alfonso. This evening I will try to re-record the part, in which I have played the wrong tone, and try to cut it in (hope, I will find the exact same tempo :? ). (And I will redo the preludes b-flat-major and b-major of WTCI, because I think, the wrong notes, which are in there are really bad.)

    I´m very proud of our common experiment here and it should become as perfect as possible, so may be we can sell this as a little financial support for our nice site here. At least we could talk about this possibility, when we have the final result.
     
  10. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    I am pleased overall with the outcome so far. But I also have some reservations, so here are my nitpicks:

    1. I think my piano sounds fine and well enough in tune except for in three specific bars – 30, 31, and 32. Those not-so-high notes sound off to me. Do you think it is bad enough that I should call my tuner? It bothers me a little bit. Or maybe I can just tune those particular strings? I have the tools to do so. Tell me honestly what you think about this. Strange, because every other bar sounds fine.

    2. Bar 33 – Alfonso is right; there is a change in the tempo. I was playing very strictly with my metronome set at 69. I guess it is possible that my metronome and Andreas’ metronome are not exactly precise with each other. Andreas – did you have yours set at 69? And is this necessarily bad here? Can it pass as just a transition into the second section of the piece? IMO, I am not crazy about it and wish this was better.

    3. Bar 34 – I think Alfonso and I are fine, dynamic wise, and Andreas should be louder. But then at bar 37 I think I got over-zealous with that crescendo because after that I seem to be too loud. It’s like that from bar 38 – 45. It sounds like I am pounding on the keyboard! (Kind of irritating for me, because I don’t get that kind of sweeping dynamics as I’d like to when I’m recording alone.) But from bar 46 to the end still sounds just right to me.

    4. Bar 54 – This may be an editing thing, or perhaps a metronome thing, but it seems that I come in a tad too early on those five 8th notes.

    So what do you think? I am going back and forth. Do you have any objections to redoing some of this? We could probably keep Andreas’ initial beginning section and when I have that transition point at bar 33, I can use a slightly faster metronome setting. Or….am I being to nitpicky and this all is acceptable? However, as David mentions, this kind of collaboration may be the first of its kind and I’d like to get it as perfect as we can. And I think we really can get it perfect since it is not too far from that already. Then again, since this is the first of its kind, it is okay that it’s not perfect? I vote for doing a re-recording, but I don’t want to make you both sorry you got into this project, so if you want to try to solve some of these issues with editing, then fine.

    So please, be very honest here.

    Ok, that's all for now...
     
  11. alf

    alf Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Piemonte, Italy
    Last Name:
    Bertazzi
    First Name:
    Alfonso
    Your ears must be sharper than mine, because those notes don't seem so off to me.

    If we decide to re-record I propose to NOT use the metronome anymore. Monica, you don't need the MM as you play solo from bar 33 on, and when you play on Andreas' track, he's your MM. It's much more natural that way, I think.

    Yes, that "pounding" is not very beautiful.

    Right, I forgot to mention it.

    It depends on what you want to do with this project. You seem both very serious about that. I don't have any reservations about redoing the whole thing (learning from errors), but I leave Andreas to decide since he's making the most of the work.
     
  12. Rachfan

    Rachfan Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    2,152
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Chief Operating Officer, retired
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Last Name:
    April
    First Name:
    David
    Can't wait to hear the final mix tomorrow!

    David
     
  13. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    I am very serious about this, and I'm glad you are ok about re-recording some of this. I think Andreas will be too. And really it's only from bar 33 to the end so it is only half of the piece.

    And since you don't hear my piano being off on those places, then I'll let it be. My last tuning was in mid-December and I'd probably make it worse if I tried to tune it myself.

    Now we await Andreas' thoughts....


    David - love your enthusiasm! But the final mix is most likely a couple days away, yet.
     
  14. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    I propose the following:
    I`ll rerecord the bar with my wrong notes and cut it in, then I will try to do a final mix and try to improve all the things you mentioned above and then we´ll decide, if it´s necessary to rerecord. If you´ll think so, I will do a rerecording with pleasure.
    Monica, I don´t think, too, that the tuning of your piano in the bars 30, 31, 32 is too bad. It´s o.k. like this. That you come a bit too early with the 5 8th is no problem. I can add a certain measure of silence to your part there, so that you will come in exactly. I also can make your part more piano from bar 38 - 45. These things are all no problems with Wave Lab. I can also reduce a bit the tempo from bar 33 on, if you like.
    So, please let us wait for the final mix. I´ll try to do it this evening. If I don´t get it finish, I will post the first "final mix" tomorrow. O.k.?
     
  15. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Andreas - the tempo from bar 33 needs to be a tiny bit faster (increased), not slower (reduced). But again, I have a reservation about this. It's about changing the tempo with technology, instead of actual playing. Feels like cheating to me, although I know we are doing plenty of other things like changing volume and so forth. It's just that I've always felt that changing tempo via technology was the ultimate in cheating, and I don't want anyone reading all of this to think that we could only get this thing together by 'fixing' everything with our computers and not our playing. What do you guys think?
     
  16. alf

    alf Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Piemonte, Italy
    Last Name:
    Bertazzi
    First Name:
    Alfonso
    Whatever you both decide to do is okay with me. It started as an experiment and for me it still is.
     
  17. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    O.k., I will not change the tempo. It´s not possible to make a piece faster without a heavy lost of sound-quality, if one wants to change tempo, it´s only possible to make the piece slower. But I think, too, it´s cheating, even if we make the passage only a very little bit slower. (But I understood, that it has to become faster, and this is not possible.)

    I have rerecorded my wrong bar. I will do an editing now and then, you, Monica, can decide, if you want to rerecord. Alfonso and me, we do all what you decide, I think. I have the same attitude (this time it´s not "setting", Chris, isn´t it :lol: ) like Alfonso concerning this experiment.
     
  18. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    This is a first final version. The cut-in of my corrigated passage didn´t work, because the voices where not any more together. (Though I played with a metronome-beat of 69.)

    I think, I still can three points improve by editing:
    (perhaps the a sharp instead of a natural in my part), your incoming in bar 20, Monica, which is a little bit too late and I could increase the tempo from bar 33 on a very little bit (it´s possible, I have tested it).
    So, from my view it should be possible without a rerecording, but you decide, Monica.

    Tell me your opinion, please. Improvements in editing and/or rerecording are possible.
     
  19. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    1
    Last Name:
    Hart
    First Name:
    Monica
    Andreas – you are a magician as well as a musician, because this is a lot better than the first version.
    Here are the things I noticed:

    Balance is good in the beginning

    Alfonso’s part is slightly too loud from bar 15 – 19

    Bar 33 – Wow – it’s amazing how much better the transition is now.

    Bars 34 -36 - good balance.

    Bar 37 -45 - That darn crescendo at bar 37 – it brings up Alfonso and me too much still. It hurts my ears how loud we sound against Andreas' part. That's all I hear, that back and forth thing Alfonso and I play, instead of hearing the melody line sing.

    Bars 46-53 - good balance.

    Bar 54 – the timing is a little better now, but I think I am too soft.

    What I have learned from all of this is that when there is a crescendo in the music, the part that is carrying the melody should be the only one to get louder. I think the balance would be better. Does that make sense? Also, Andreas – I wish for a little more bass sound in your low octaves. Your piano sounds so nice, but I sometimes can’t hear the bass as much as I’d like. So, if we re-record, I would suggest that we 1. Keep the same tempo, 2. Andreas plays the low octaves a bit louder, 3. I keep up the tempo at bar 33 and forward, 4. Alfonso and I do not crescendo on bars 37 and 41 but Andreas does (maybe Alfonso and I do just a little bit).

    If you feel like doing more fixing with these points, (also increasing tempo at bar 33) then that’s okay with me. If you say that it is impossible to fix that crescendo thing, then I think we should re-record.
     
  20. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    3,028
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    High-school-teacher with subjects music and german
    Location:
    Germany
    Last Name:
    Pfaul
    First Name:
    Andreas
    Of course, it would be a pleasure to learn by doing and to rerecord the entire thing. But first let me try to work in all your suggestions above by editing, Monica, I think, it´s possible. I just would have needed a bit more time yesterday. It was very late, so I had to go to bed. The only problem could be my wrong note (A natural). All the other things (volume, more bass etc.) can be solved by editing.
    Today I have my long working-day. This evening I will be back again.
    Thanks for the compliment above, Monica. :D
     

Share This Page