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Hand-over-hand technique

Discussion in 'Technique' started by juufa72, Jan 19, 2008.

  1. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Hello all,

    I have decided to dust off my Hungarian Rhapsody #5 because it is an underrated rhapsody. Sure it's long and lacks a friska, but it has it's moments.

    But the problem I am having is playing a chord in the left hand then an apregg. on the higher registers with that hand, while playing something in the same spot with my right hand.

    Any tips? Especially for small(er) hands and a big(ger) chest / frame? ( I knew that weightlifting like Schwarzenegger wouldn't be a good idea :x :wink: )

    Thanks,

    -jg

    p..s I posted the sheet music below. The trouble begins on page 6.
     
  2. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    I'm having the same problem with that Beethoven piece with the cross-over section. My chest isn't in the way, but I need longer arms. I found that if I quickly scoot over on the bench (without falling off) it helps.
     
  3. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Talking about the 2nd movement of the Tempest? :lol: Good luck. :D
     
  4. Cydonia

    Cydonia New Member

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    Simply "swap hands" whenever possible.

    I don’t know if this can be done efficiently in that Liszt piece because I’ve never played it, but I'm sure it's likely to work given the slow tempo indication. I do this as often as possible in many pieces to avoid crossing arms. Although... Be careful not to forget to subdue what should be played at lower volume and continue to emphasize the louder part, when "swapping hands".
     
  5. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I tried to exchange the note responsibility between the hands. But it sounded very bad and hesistant after a couple of hours of practice. (Not all in one session...I can't sit at the keyboard for more than twenty minutes at a time...I become bored)

    The left hand was the worst part. The right hand arpeggies were not bad.
     
  6. Cydonia

    Cydonia New Member

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    Juufa, sorry if my trick can't work for this particular piece. Of course, Mr Liszt loves complicated stuff, so such tricks may not work very well with him.

    As I said, it's not always usable, but it can become an alternative sometimes to avoid crossing arms.
     
  7. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Martin - yes - the Tempest, 2nd movement. I've been practicing that piece for a couple weeks now, and it is all ok, except for that cross-over part. I listen to Brendel, who plays it so smooth and easy. But it's also slower than how I have been practicing, so I thought I just need to slow down to get it to go right. Now, however, I am going to try your idea. My piano lessons are cancelled for another couple weeks, but this is just the kind of thing my teacher would suggest. There is a place in the first movement where this idea could work, too. Wish I would have remembered all of that, earlier. Can't wait to try it tomorrow. Thanks. :)
     
  8. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I played a piece once (forgot exactly what piece it was) where I could use your described technique...it worked very well.

    And if I could use the swap-move for this rhapsody, I would! But it would sound as if someone said this to you:

    "Hello----is Julius----doing----ay?"

    translation (Hello my name is Julius, How are you doing today?")
     
  9. Cydonia

    Cydonia New Member

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    Pianolady - Glad if a little trick I found can help.

    Juufa - Haha, I can see it now by looking more closely at your score. That Liszt is always so tricky.
     
  10. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    I have always used hand-swapping when possible - I learned to do that early on from Bach's 15th sinfonia. :D But when I was learning the Tempest, my teacher...well, he got his PhD (and his other degrees also) from Julliard. :lol: He seemed to think that hand-swapping was out of the question. :lol:
     
  11. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    pretentious?
     
  12. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Who? Me or him? :lol:
     
  13. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    "Look at me! I have my PhD! All must bow to me and take the ground I walk on and the words I speak as gold!" :wink:
     
  14. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Well, I tried that hand-swapping thing yesterday. It works fine, except that the left hand needs to shoot up quickly and take over the 16th notes coming down. If you don't do that, then the hands end up crossing the other way, which totally confused me, so I gave up. I guess with enough practice I could jump the LH to take over the run, but I have a feeling I'm not doing something right. I think I need to stick to the original way. Thanks for the tip, anyway.
     
  15. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Oh. Well, since I don't have a PhD at all (much less one from Julliard) I guess you're not talking about me. :lol:

    He was actually an awesome teacher. He just wasn't really fond of anything he thought was cheating, and you can bet that his ideas on what was cheating and what was not came from his schooling. He went to Julliard when he was 8. :lol:
     
  16. s_winitsky

    s_winitsky Member

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    If it means anything one trick that helps me lots when doing big jumps is sitting in the same comfortable spot. If I am always moving, then my hand motions are always different. It makes it hard to remember your hand motions if they are not always the same! If I sit in the same spot after a little while I can play eyes almost closed. Although I should say I never actually tried to play this piece so I might be speaking out of turn. There are also other tricks to learning jumps I think :)

     
  17. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    This seems to make sense. It is for the same reason that organists are recommened to keep the knees together as much as possible, making it easier for the feet to remember and find their positions from a central pivot point.
     
  18. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    I guess it's the high LH arpeggios that give you trouble, not the low (un-crossed) ones ?

    There are 3 reasons that may make these difficult:

    1) The stretch, as you have small hands
    2) The fact that the LH must play over the right (though the distance is not great, that can't be the problem as you are not Terez :lol: )
    3) The high lying position of the LH, which perhaps necessitates a posture change

    I recommend trying to find out which of these 3 aspects is causing you the most trouble, and practice them on their own. This is just an idea, I never tried something like this as these bars never gave me trouble. Sound like it might work though...
     
  19. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I will give it a try and see which of the three you pointed out gives me the most trouble.

    But that will have to wait until I am back at home. Classes stared last week (this is week #2 of 17) and I am already behind. :evil: :?
     
  20. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    They have been staring you in the face haven't they ? :p
     

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