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Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by Anonymous, Jan 28, 2012.

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  1. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    I just find it a bit silly. Sure, if you really work on something, you can end up with intimate knowledge of the most minute details of a piece and a conviction that yours is the true way, but to state such is to open oneself to ridicule.
     
  2. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Exactly. Silly it is, more than anything else.

    Even sillier is to believe that people will not recognize from the first few notes that this is computer work rather than art.

    But all these discussions in various forums are in a way publicity for VSL. Maybe that was the sole objective of the whole thing. Whether VSL should be happy with the way it's evolved, is another matter.... I don't think it will do them any favors. The VSL site is woefully vague about it all, starting off on the wrong foot with the proud header "Bacos Plays Chopin" and touting the same sort of blurb that Guy uses himself. Can't help thinking that maybe Guy is a major shareholder or something like that. Could just be that I need to get a life :)
     
  3. johnlewisgrant

    johnlewisgrant Member Piano Society Artist

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    This is the heart of the matter. I agree almost entirely. I might quibble with the proposition that the end-result of midi-sculpting is not "real." Not a real performance; no question. But it is as physically real as an oil painting, but one that has not been "painted" in the usual manner. I think the "paint by numbers" analogy might be close, although not perfect. The process, means of production, is completely different. The skill involved is completely different. To call the result a "painting", one might even say, is misleading. But the end-result can, arguably, be indistinguishable from a professionallly pianted oil.

    Therein lies one of th problems of talking about midi-editing. And you certainly do draw attention to it above. Midi editors talk in the language of music, using words like "performance." That kind of talk is hopelessly inaccurate; it is also deceptive and misleading, not because the product isn't potentially identical to a recorded performance (a midi device hooked up to a piano can do that), but because the process (like the paint by numbers painting} is totally different.

    Perhaps there can be an "art" of painting by numbers and, consequently, the evolution of a "technique" specific to it; a language of criticism and evaluation unique to it; but its transparent that the language, even if it adopted the same words as the language of art criticism, would refer to completely and totally different techniques and cognitive processes.

    There is, as well, an interesting half-way house between midi and true piano performance: imagine a very precise midi-player mechnism attached to a good Bos or Steinway D or Steingraeber, sitting in the best recording studio in the world. (A distasteful thought for many who may already realize where I'm going with this). Pollini enters the studio. Performs the entire set of Etudes (opus 10 and 48), which performance is completely recorded in midi. It is replayed to him in the studio, exactly as he played it on the instrument, and AT or BY that instrument as well, because remember... the instrument is hooked up to a midi player. Then Pollini says, hmmmm. I want to change this or that about his performance. The midi editor examines the midi record of Pollini's performance and fixes, say, one wrong note. Or speeds up an entire Etude. Pollini listens to the result, again played live in front of him on the Bos or the Steinway through the dead on accurate midi player. And says: "I like that." The mics are turned on. The result recorded.

    This scenario puts the test to folks like me who want to draw a bright line between midi-editing and true pianism. I think there's an easy answer to this sort of challenge, but I'm not going to say what it is. Is it midi or real? Is it aesthetically less "valuable", for want of a better term. Is it qualitatively different from what, I'm told, sound engineers do to classical music?

    JG

    JG
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Chris: :roll:
     
  5. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    you may also want to check this thread:
     
  6. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    I dearly wish there was a line could be drawn between 'real' (i.e. fully acoustic and non-edited) and not real. It would make our lives ever so much easier. But there seem to be a zillion possibilities in between. We imagine a line somewhere but really it is a vast no-mans land. Ultimately the admins
    get to decide on which side of the imaginary fence a submission sits. An ungrateful task because we can't be objective and whatever we decide it will be hotly argued by people from both sides of the camp. I don't at all enjoy steering this cramped course, but I do not even want to consider the two only possible alternatives:

    1) Only allow acoustic non-edited recordings. That would lower both the quantity and quality of our recordings drastically (as many people only have a digital, and we don't want to hear tons of errors, bad sound, etc)

    2) Allow anything at all. In that case we might as well dismantle PS and refer people to YT where anything goes.
     
  7. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Looks like these may be the same people who commented on Facebook ? It stands to reason that people from the 'virtual scene' would have a different reaction than us traditional pianists here. I am amused by your signature saying 'Composer/VSL Demo Maker'. Modesty is such a virtue :wink:
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    There are so many things mentioned in the lasts few posts here that are totally erroneous, unfounded and cheap shots, stated in a way to make me look bad etc I could mention many of them, but it's not worth it. You guys are very upset I have my opinion of this, but I have the right to my opinion, yes or no? This doesn't represent VSL, it's my opinion only. Ok, you guys think I'm arrogant, I'm pretentious and whatever, that is your right as well. The fact that it is creating such controversy everywhere is a sign that i did my job more than well and that was the main goal. All the rest is just personal opinions, and if you don't respect that we each have the right to our opinions, than it's quite sad. This debate has become so repetitive, it's got quite boring now and everything has been said in every shape and color. I fooled the people here, that's all I wanted to do, for the rest you should not loose sleep over it, there are more important things in life. Move on!
     
  9. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Fooled us here ? Not for a moment :) Kept us busy, sure. Yes, you have a right to your opinion - and so do we.

    So if you feel your mission to be accomplished, rejoice and be happy and please do move on. I don't suppose you will be back here ?
     
  10. musical-md

    musical-md Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I can't help but recall the moment that the great Wizard of Oz was revealed for what he really was; no wizard at all. Thank you Toto. Maybe in Oz there are wizards, but not in Kansas.
     
  11. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Eddy, you don't even live in Kansas :)
     
  12. troglodyte

    troglodyte Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    This discussion is now ongoing in three places: here, Piano World and Piano Street, with somewhat different results.

    Here it quickly got out of hand with extremely personal attacks, and the thread was soon locked and someone got banned. It was reopened in a calmer mood, but so many posts are edited out that it will be difficult for a newcomer to understand what is going on.

    At PW the thing also got out of hand. That crowd is much less emphatically against midi-edited submissions, but also much less mature - flame wars are not uncommon there. Unfortunately the moderator was away. When he got back he locked the thread. Then someone started another thread on the same subject and it got nasty again. Just as an example, someone declared the intent to find Guys employer and complain about his derogatory behaviour. PW is quite liberal in interpreting the civility requirements - I wonder what it will take to get banned from there.

    At PS the discussion is comparatively calm, though not without outbursts.

    There are three separate concerns here and they tend to get confused, arguments from one spilling over to another though they are really not connected.

    The first is whether midi edited recordings constitute a valid art form. Some say no, they are soulless, cheating (analogous to athletes on steroids), draw attention from the all important gymnastics of playing, and insulting to hard working real pianists. Other say yes, the object of interest is the final product, and it is no less cheating than using photoshop when publishing photographs, and anyway lots of editing is routinely done in the music industry. This we could potentially discuss here. Although the moderators have made their point extremely clear there can be room for discussion. But perhaps not in a forum titled "audition room"?

    The second is the value of Guy's particular submission, the Chopin etudes. This should probably not be discussed here since the moderators don't want it. I wouldn't mind, but I think we should respect the wishes of those who work hard to maintain the site. It is their house and they can make the rules.

    The third is if Guy's particular behaviour in this place is admissible. He posted without saying these are midi edited in order to see what would be our unbiased reaction, many people then felt deliberately mislead. I can understand the frustration and anger felt here but to keep bringing this up strikes me as vindictive and non productive since Guy himself has admitted he went about this wrongly and showed understanding of how he should have done it and assured us how he will do it next time.
     
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Here is the update:

    Yes, on PW, it started off bad, it is to be expected from all purists, it seems, anywhere. However, if you look now, the mood is very calm, and we have come to a mutual understanding. As we are speaking things are going great on PW.

    As for PS, the only outburst came from a couple of frustrated people who came directly from PW, at the time things got out of hand, but they quickly got their asses kicked by others. Just go and see for yourself.



    My FB wall: why don't you take a visit and see for yourself.

    Piano Society: Very bad relations, especially with the mods.
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I also think it's very unprofessional from the mods to bad mouth like this, including lies, a respected composer.
     
  15. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Oh brother, Guy... this has gone on way too long.
    We figured out within minutes that you didn't play all these etudes. Also, you said a couple pages ago that you don't like us or our forum, so why are you still here? It's obvious that you simply crave attention, whether it's positive or negative. Poor Guy....
    So one more time, since you seem to love putting us admins and the forum in general down so much, then just stay away, okay? I'll be happy to delete your account if you wish.
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I'm sorry PianoLady, this IS a public forum, if people say things concerning me or my work I have the right to reply. Hope you don't have a problem with that! As for your remarks about me, you could keep them for yourself!
     
  17. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    You are totally out of line and you better stop with the bullying. Yes, this is a public forum, but you can be deleted and deactivated in a split second. Shall I?
     
  18. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Why do you want my blessing on deleting me? It is your forum, you're the boss here, you can do what you want.
     
  19. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Wops, sorry... I'd forgotten all about you being a Very Respected Composer (as per the 2nd edit of your message :lol: ). All this talk about you being a Good Pianist must have confused me. IMO you should have stuck with being a composer/arranger/democreator maybe, and not pretend you are a pianist. If there's one thing we cannot stand here it is pretending.

    Now let's end this childish and futile thread, it is going absolutely nowhere despite all the good points being made. We would like to discuss music
    once more, and I'm sure you also have better things to do, like starting on the definitive VSL version of the Bach 48 or Beethoven 32. Make sure
    you perform them in concert first.

    So.... all good things come to an end. It was fun while it lasted. Goodbye.

    [curtain down]

    ... The Spectre disappears, plucking chords on his guitar ...
     
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