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Chopin Waltz No. 19 in A Minor, Op. Posth

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by 88man, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hyper-cardioid is more directive than cardioid. Wide cardioid is also said infra-cardioid because it is less directive than cardioid. In the KM 18x range from Neumann, there are

    KM183 omnidirectional,
    KM184 cardioid,
    KM 185 hyper-cardioid.

    By the way, I don't agree with the definition of the proximity effect given by George. It doest not make sound some notes out of tune; it's a reinforcement of the low frequency range which arises when the source is very close to a pressure gradient sensitive microphone, typically less than 30 cm, which is of interest especially for the pop&rock singers. Any cardioid microphone is pressure gradient sensitive and has a more or less pronounced proximity effect. For more information:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_effect_(audio).
     
  2. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thank you, dear Didier, for your advices and explanations. So "wide cardiod" is something other than "Hyper-Niere". I have understood that. I will read this article. Your opinion means much to me as you know. So, I´m really delighted, that you jumped in here. :D
     
  3. 88man

    88man Member Piano Society Artist

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    Andreas, the KM180 series have only omni, cardiod, and hypercardiod capsules as Didier mentioned. I am still surprised that, to my knowledge, there is no wide cardiod capsule that you could use with the Neumann body. Wide Cardiod retains some of the directivity of cardiods, but with a more natural sound closer to an omni. I don't know how your room is, but omni may pick up too much nearby reflections. Honestly, I would recommend that you rent a KM183 or an available wide cardiod mic for a day and record at varying distances and positions. If omni doesn't sound good, you will not have lost too much money in the process. Let me know...


    Thanks Didier, instead of "Off Axis Response," I said "Proximity Effect." I corrected the term. The phenomenon is the same - it's the cardiod's "off axis response" that alters the tonality in making certain notes sound out of tune at close proximity to the strings.


    Didier wrote on proximity effect:
    Cardiods exhibit a proximity effect as it relates to bass boost at short distances. However, this may hold true for vocalists at less than 30cm, I don't agree that this holds true for for piano recording.

    Theory and reality can be very different. I've experimented with proximity effect and I find that bass boost continues for a few feet on the piano and not "less than 30cm." Each instrument has a near field and far field response when micing. The sound of the piano continues to form over a few feet from the strings, reaching a final cohesive sound field to about a 4ft from the piano. The near field area on a piano is about 1000x greater than a vocalist (0.002 sq. m vs 2+ sq. m of direct sound). With such a large area in the near field, there is direct sound coming at much greater angles into the mic diaphragm on a piano. The phase difference would be less on the front and back of the diaphragm because the path length difference in the direct sound is still lies within the near field distance of a few feet or so from the strings, and not less than 30cm. The proximity effect continues as long as there is a pressure gradient.

    We know what the effects of amplitude, frequency, and distance from the source do to the proximity effect, but unfortunately, the wikipedia explanation says nothing about the near and field responses as it relates the proximity effect. Didier, you and I have discussed proximity effect before in my earlier thread "Making Professional Home Recordings," and I've always felt that the proximity effect continues longer than 10-12in on pianos. I finally looked into this in more detail today, and I discovered a paper presented by David Josephson at the AES (Audio Engineering Society) in September, 1999, discussing the physics of sound pressure and pressure gradient in the near and far field. He concludes that "proximity effect is not only an issue for close sources but also for distant ones in many cases. While the international microphone characterization standard IEC 60268-4 suggests measurement of frequency response in the plane wave conditions (or the far field), very few microphone makers actually report this information."
    http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=8122

    The piano continues to be one of the most challenging instruments to record at closer distances because of its fast transients (percussive nature), complex tone. With a large near field area, it poses additional challenges to record at the customary close distances.
     
  4. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    88man wrote:

    Thank you, dear George, for your advices, I only think it will take a while, until I will find the time to rent and test the other capsules of the KM 180 series. But one day I will do it, that´s sure, and I will let you know.

    That was a very interesting discussion here! Thank you once more.
     
  5. 88man

    88man Member Piano Society Artist

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    Andreas, either me or Didier, for sure, would be glad to help you or anyone else on PS to achieve the best possible recording... All the recording techniques that we talk about can only reach their full potential in a great hall. If you have access to a great hall, then I would invest in a good battery operated portable recorder along the way that you can use with your current mics, like an M-Audio Microtrack II.

    Good Luck!
     
  6. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    The KM 18x models are the fixed cap versions of the modular models KM 1x0 within the KM 1xy range. Each KM 1xy model is composed of a KM 100 body and an AK xy cap. Among the models in the KM 1xy other than the KM 130, 140 and 150 corresponding to the three fixed cap models, there is especially a wide cardioid one, the KM 143. (Yes, it is a bit of mess in the Neumann references. We don't use that from a German company. :wink: )

    George, thank you very much for this reference. It looks much interesting. But I'm hesitating in paying 20$ to get the full version because I never paid so much for a paper. (As a scientist, I rather use to be paid for reading them. ) I should save the money for getting from David Josephson, rather than a paper, one more fom his excellent microphones. :wink:
     
  7. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    hi, George!

    this is a sensitive performance! I like this waltz a lot.
    in my opinion, I think it could have less rubato (and still being sensitive). but this is very difficult to achieve (pianists try this the whole life!), and it's only my opinion.

    nice job!
     
  8. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Didier wrote:
    Yes, right, seems to be a bit of a mess. Most German companies in times of today are not the same they have been in former times, I have to say this from a realistic view. F.ex. if you have a look at the modern Mercedes, many parts are built in countries, which have cheap salaries and not much quality.
    If you buy a newer Mercedes, let´s say one built in the last ten years (or more), you can be sure to have problems with that car and being treated very arrogantly and unpolitely. But you can say "I´m driving a Mercedes". O.k., if one is happy with that, he should be a happy, if he likes, but I prefer f.ex. a Toyota, which is of a real good quality, at least I have never had any problem with it and in the ADAC statistic of breakdowns it has the lowest range among all cars. Well, but now I have gone enough out of topic here. :oops:
     

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