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Chopin Nocturnes op.48-1 and 55-2.

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by Anonymous, Apr 5, 2007.

  1. Anonymous

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  2. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Right off the bat, I have to admit that I have never heard or played the Op 55. No. 2 before. :oops:
    It sounded very nice, so I trust that you played all correct notes.

    I have played the 48-1 so at least I comment on a few things. Everything sounded nice, your technique, dynamics (I wonder what Chopin was thinking about during the octave triplets). The Doppio movimento - To each his/her own interpretation - but I prefer a more forward motion kind of feel to this part - long lines and no rubato. At the 4th measure from the end, the C is tied over.
    All in all, a beautiful sound to these. I'm glad I listened to them second so I can go to sleep now.
     
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  4. robert

    robert New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Both Nocturnes are very well performed, however a bit slow and perhaps a bit hesitating like you are dragging out the next note. Not in a disturbing manner but a bit different than mainstream recordings.

    I have only played the majestatic C minor Nocturne (and it is incredible that noone recording this famous Nocturne before!) and know the difficulties of movement 3 but once you get the hang of it, it fits the hands pretty well. A bit more distinct dynamic changes and more power in the B section would not hurt and rather than doing an accelerando at the end of the B-section to the C-section, you do the opposite. But no wrong notes from what I can hear and musically, you seem to have a good idea for this nocturne and plays in a consequent manner all the way through. Well done!

    The op.55 no.2 (which too is famous and I am a bit suprised that pianolady has not heared this before, especially as it has been on the site since the very beginning ;)) is played a bit too slow for my likings but is nevertheless a very good recording with every note in it place and also consequent interpretated the whole way.

    Both recordings are up on the site!
     
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  6. Chaotica

    Chaotica New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I very much like your respectful approach (really!), but I have to say you're wrong.

    Let's say the initial tempo is 1. Then the "poco più lento" could be 0.8 and the "doppio movimento" would be 1.6 then. So it's significantly faster because the measuring never changes. Note that the recapitulation is in quarter notes, just like in the beginning. In other words: In the B section, you have six semiquavers per quarter note, but in the last one, it's only three quavers per quarter note, while the semiquavers become quavers. So it is a real "doppio movimento". (This wasn't very clear, right? :) )

    That's why I was always stopped at the end of the B section. Just too lazy to learn the last section of this piece... :roll:

    Besides that, I find your recordings very good and quite accomplished. Though the 55-2 is really terribly slow... I would just speed it up a bit, it's very well within your technical abilities!
     
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  8. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    As usual, well and ably played, but, even more so than previous recordings, rather too full of unusual things, the way pianists like Pogorelich, Mustonen, or Pletnev tend to do things 'differently'.

    The Op.48.1 (which I was planning to record one day too) would benefit from a fuller tone and the sound of an acoustic grand. Thje digital sound does not suit this grand and epic piece. Technically you are well on top of it but very strange things happen with the rhythm, both in the poco piu lento and the doppio movimento sections. The polyrhythms sound a bit random. I would have liked a steadier pulse and weightier tone here (I always like think Rachmainov got his clue here for his famous Op.39 No.5 Etude-Tableau). It's a difficult piece and you did very well.

    The Op.55.2, which I think is a terrifically exciting piece, gets plain boring at this pace. One thing that jarred my ear is in bar 29, where, in both hands, you play D flat instead of d. Is that a D flat in your score ? In bar 36, last beat, your RH omits the g in the 7-tuple. The constant de-synchronization of hands (left-before-right) did get rather on my nerves here. The closing chord is not marked arpeggio in my Paderewski score, is it in yours ?
     
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  10. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Ahaahhhhaaaaahhh ... I love that one :lol: :lol:

    But you should not feel that any of my comments necessitate a re-recording. You may be controversial but you do everything for a reason (whether it be a good one or not, is not the point). So it's no use argueing about it, even though it is always fun. The least I can do is point out the
    reading mistakes.... It's a dirty job and someone has to do it :D
     
  11. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Technically seen you did really well on both nocturnes. Also, your digital piano seems to be captured from a very long grand, that way those deep bass notes come out better as on shorter grands like mine :cry:
    I also find, that it is not a "must" to play the poco piu lento section on 48-1 at "0.8" speed and the doppio movimento section at "1.6" speed. Nevertheless, that doppio movimento section could come out bit more lively (I however very much liked your fluid octave passages before that section) according to my taste. That's not just the easiest nocturne, that's for sure, and considering that you played it well.

    What bothered me a bit was, that throughout the doppion movimento section most of the left hand notes are not audible. I only do hear the octave notes from the left hand triplets, the other left hand notes are almost unaudible or completely unaudible. Especially in the crossrhythm spots it would give a strong effect to hear them clearly and in proper rhythm.

    The 55-2 is pretty well played too, maybe it could sound a bit more fluid - just a matter of taste.

    Overall very well!
     
  12. Anonymous

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    Hello Olaf ! I read now your bio: another (as Robson and me) of the club of "beginners again"
    (I too after 20 years). Thank you for the considerations (all interesting and precise).


    >Also, your digital piano seems to be captured from a very long grand, that way those deep bass notes come out better as on shorter grands like mine :cry:

    I've seen the photo. Which piano is? Are you actually feel well with it?
    If you have to pay 15-20K euro for a grand (used or new) which instrument do you
    seek for?

    > Nevertheless, that doppio movimento section could come out bit more lively

    I played here faster. But I forced myself to the same beginning tempo (reserving to the polirytm
    and to the rubato the expression of the "agitato"). An "aria con da capo" do not admit a different
    time, and I find this tempo as the (of mine, obvious) correct tempo.

    > What bothered me a bit was, that throughout the doppion movimento section most of the left hand notes are not audible.

    OK, but it's not (or it's not only) a lack of precision.
    My perspective, here:

    1) the melody
    2) the melody
    3) the melody
    4) the bass
    5) the bass
    6) the inner parts, but more as a "humus" , a magmatic soil than as a clear and linear
    structure.

    > Especially in the crossrhythm spots it would give a strong effect to hear them clearly and in proper rhythm.

    You have reason, at 100% in abstract, and in another percentual considering my priorities here.

    Thank you Olaf!
    All best,
    Sandro.
     
  13. Chaotica

    Chaotica New Member Piano Society Artist

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    These figures were only completely random examples and I was just speaking in theory.

    Anyway, in my opinion, it would be even more respectful to the work if you changed half of the notes rather than changing the tempo. :|
     
  14. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Yes, you are right, I started again with piano playing after a gap of 20 or so years.
    Regarding my piano, I feel very well (and am a bit proud about that furniture too). It is only, that with 1.80m length (Model "O") you don't get those deep bass out like on a concert grand. I also have a digital piano Kawai MP9500 (the same you used, I think?). I very much like that bass sound, also the crystal clear treble sound. I hate the action (although it is so much praised in the internet). It is tenacious, hard and makes much noise (by comparision with a "real" action).

    After the experiences with a restaured old grand I really can recommend, to search for an old quality instrument. I played on a 100 year old Steinway "B", acoustically restaured. Sounded almost better than a new one to me (because the aged wood adds some warmth new wood don't have in my opinion) And you play on ebony and ivory instead plastic keys :).
    So my recommendation: look for such an old high quality instrument, let it cost 5k Euro at max (this seems a realistic amount). A complete acoustic restauration (new strings, new action, new intonation, soundboard restauration) costs about 10k Euro. Then you have an instrument for 15k, what don't look optical new, but sounds wonderful. With a third of the amount a new comparable instrument costs. Try it out in a store, if there are restaured instruments.

    Sandro, I don't argue with you about the tempo in the doppio movement section. I have a wonderful recording by Ivan Moravec, he don't play at double speed either (but at least a significant amout faster).

    Ok, so it sounds also - the only thing is however, I hear only points 1) to 5) more or less. It is a matter of taste to give more or less strong accent on the melody and bass. However, those inner parts are almost or completely unaudible. I simply don't know whether you played them at all or not. The point is, they should be at least audible, really. It is however only my own opinion, how your approach sounds to me, maybe other have other opinions.

    I have large respect for everyonle who plays that 48-1 nocturne, and I am too just working on that. It will take longer time until it is ready for a posting here.

    To Chaotica: I knew, those numbers "0.8" and "1.6" were only examples. Regarding beeing respectful to the work, it goes a bit too far for me to raise the importance of a certain tempo over the correct notes. I did not hear wrong notes, Sandro plays that nocturne respectful in my opinion. It is ok and valid, that everyone has different opinions about this or that. Makes it more interesting to discuss too. And makes it more interesting to listen to the different versions anytime. At least I know that Chris will go for this nocturne too.
     
  15. Chaotica

    Chaotica New Member Piano Society Artist

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    My statement was only a completely random exaggeration and I was just ranting at people... :wink:

    Sandro's playing is very impressive to me (much better than mine, of course) as I stated earlier in this thread, but it would be even better if he followed the indicated tempi, in my opinion.
     
  16. Anonymous

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