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Chopin, Nocturne c sharp minor, KK IVa, nr. 16, 20b

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by musicusblau, Oct 3, 2008.

  1. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I decided to refresh this piece. I played it many years ago and I always have loved it. I think, in a slower tempo I could catch better the atmosphere of this extreme beautiful piece. Chopin named it "Lento con gran espressione".
    Hope you like it.

    Comments are welcome and now I invite you all to dream a bit... :wink:


    Chopin - Nocturne in C-sharp minor Op. posth.
     
  2. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    :shock: What a surprise! :D
    I just get back to home after a few days travel and did not expect to find another new recording of this nocturne. By listening to your version, I realize still more how unsteady is the rhythm of mine. Good piano lesson to me. :wink:

    May the pupil says his feeling about the performance of his professor? May be not convenient :oops:. But I would prefer a faster tempo. I prefer also when the repetition in the introduction is quieter than the first exposition. Nevertheless, your recording is much worth to me. Thank you, Andreas.
     
  3. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Didier,
    thank you for your comment. :D
    Didier wrote:
    I love to make surprises! :lol:

    I was inspired by your version to refresh this piece. So I have to thank you. :wink:

    Of course, of course, all these points are a matter of taste... it´s always the same.

    I´m very glad about this. :D You still helped me a lot, too (concerning questions of recording-technique) and I´m thankful for this. I realized, that the sound-quality of your last recording has muched improved.
     
  4. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi again, Andreas.

    I think this is the first time I am hearing you play Chopin. I expected a sure and clean touch and was not disappointed in this. The only thing is your tempo - now I really understand why you like that Bach 2nd movement of the Italian Concerto slower than I do! Your tempo on this Chopin piece is so much slower than I have ever heard before. I am like Didier in that I too like it faster. But as you yourself say, "it is a matter of taste". The only other little thing is that I missed the two grace notes in bar 5, an E and F# at the end of the bar that leads to the G# in bar 6. Maybe that is not in your score? I heard a couple other things in your version that I am not used to, but I know there are seemingly endless versions of this piece with many differences, so I will not be surprised if this is the case.

    Your long RH run at the end was perfect! Wish I could get my runs like that.

    Ok - this is on the site.
     
  5. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Monica,
    thank you for your comment.
    Pianolady wrote:
    Really? I posted on this site two ballads and one scherzo(, but I still played much more of Chopin´s pieces than I posted here on PS).

    Thanks for this.

    Thanks for your feedback. I think, it´s also the slowest version I ever heard before. :lol: But if you all here prefer a faster version I would like to do a re-recording one nice day, if you allow me to do. I´m sure it will be not a too big problem for me. :p :wink: (Possibilities of interpretation are so great and endless, that´s the artistic fascination of music for me.)
    That I prefer the 2nd movement of the Italian Concerto slower, has nothing to do with this Nocturne of Chopin, it´s totally independent, and I don´t always prefer the very slow tempi. No prejudices, please. :wink:


    I used the Henle-edition and played from the version of the self-manuscript of the composer (20b), in the version of the transcript (20a) there are the two grace notes you mentioned. So, I decided to drop them.

    What are these couple of other things? It would be very interesting to hear details of a Chopin-expert like you are.

    Thank you very much, Monica. :D
     
  6. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Oops. :oops: :oops: . I'm too afraid to go back and look, but I probably commented on them too! Must have had a momentary bout of insanity here.

    Ok, point taken! And I may re-record the 2nd movement slower some day. :wink:



    I am far from being a Chopin expert. I only meant that I heard a few variances in your recording that I am not used to hearing, which are as follows:

    1. Bar 18 - Last LH 8th note is an A, not A#.
    2. Bar 32 - RH 2nd 16th note is C#, not D.
    3. Bar 53 - Last RH notes are part of a triplet D#-E-F#
     
  7. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Pianolady wrote:
    Why are you afraid? :lol:

    I compared the manuscript-of-the-composer-version with the transcription-version and found the following:
    1. Bar 18 - last LH note is an A in the composers original (20b), which I choosed for my performance. So, in fact, I made a read error here.
    point 2 and 3: these notes can be found in the transcription, which I didn´t use for my performance.
    Thank you very much for this useful advices, Monica.
     
  8. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Here is my new and faster version of the Nocturne. Hope, you like it now.

    Monica, could you please replace the old file and also go to my Bach: prelude and fugue g sharp minor and replace the old file?

    Comments are welcome!

    Chopin - Nocturne in C-sharp minor, Op. posth.
     
  9. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Ok, my antenna received your signal this time. :wink:

    That was very lovely, Andreas. I'll put it up later tonight. Going on a dinner date right now.
     
  10. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I preferred this schnellere Version. :)
     
  11. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Ok- I replaced it, Andreas.
     
  12. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Hmmm....does your edition really have A#s on the downbeats of mms. 2 and 4 in the left hand? That's quite strange.

    There are quite a few other things I noticed but that was the most disturbing difference I heard, other than a marked uncertainty with the rhythm beginning in measure 21. I could chalk that up to "tempo rubato" but it comes across as being much more uncertain than expressive.
     
  13. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Monica,
    Pianolady wrote:
    Thank you very much, Monica, also for replacing the old file. Adding to my statements yesterday in your topic of the 2nd movement of Bachs Italian Concerto I have to admit, that I feel much more happy, if there are some people, who have an antenna for my musical messages. :wink:
     
  14. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Terez wrote:
    You are right with this :oops: , that seemed to have been my dramatic fantasy, because I created a diminished chord here. :lol:

    All other differences to your use of hearing this piece probably are caused by the different versions (see above, please).
    And now I´m coming to the point: I play the rhythm beginning in bar 21 after the self-manuscript-version of the composer (20b), which is totally different from the transcription-version (20a), which is quite often used by other interpreters. Do you know these differences?
    I can asure you, that from my view I play the rhythm beginning in bar 21 totally correct after this version (20b). I make a bit rubato beginning in bar 24, especially in the bars 25-26 what´s concerning the 3-against-4-rhythm. But that´s my intention and it needs people with an adequate "antenna" to receive the message. :lol: :wink:
     
  15. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Would you be willing to post a scan of that page of the score? Because I think my antenna is quite fine, thanks. We discussed these differences on PS a long time ago. I also have some professional recordings of this nocturne played from the manuscript, so I know how it's supposed to sound, and it's not like that.
     
  16. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Terez wrote:
    I´m sorry, in this time I have no possibility to scan something. But the manuscript-version is available in the Henle-edition, which I used for my performance.

    Could you tell me, please, to which recordings exactly you refer? As soon as I will find some time, I will listen also to some recordings of professional pianists again and compare it with my version.
    I played this piece, when I was sixteen and I listened still to some professional recordings, too (and I heard it several times in concerts), but I didn´t listen again to a professional recording just before refreshing it and posting it here. So I played it, like I feel it to be right just from the score and like it was in my mind. (And because even I made some nice times the experience, that I´m able to read and to play scores correctly, so I´m convinced, that I play it correctly, but, of course, errors are never excluded. :wink: ) So, may be you are right, may be not. I have to examine this question. Thanks for the advice.
    Would be interesting to hear also the opinion of other members.
     
  17. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Well, this isn't professional by any stretch, but this guy handles the superimposed time signatures fairly smoothly, as does this guy (though there are other imperfections in both recordings). If it makes you feel better, Arrau apparently had problems with it. :lol: I think that there is a good reason why most people go with the other version - this one is too difficult to play smoothly, without sounding like you have no grasp whatsoever of polyrhythm.
     
  18. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Terez wrote:
    I´m not of your opinion, because I prefer the manuscript version, because it may be nearer to the composers intention. Indeed there are several different interpretations of this passage, but there really is no reason to say, that I have "a marked uncertainty" with it. I play it correctly and I do some rubati at the places I described. I´m very well able to handle this polyrhythmic passage!

    To the recordings you put up in my topic here:
    1) The first one plays it quite accurately in time, but too unexpressive for my taste.
    2) The second is a bit too fast and too smooth for my taste.
    3) The recording of Arrau really is the best of all, because that´s a real artistic interpretation, which comes near to the composers intention (as a possibility, of course) respective to the true romantic manner to play piano. He absolutely has no problems with this passage, but plays it with a masterly and ripe expression. The only thing, which is not perfect, is that in bar 26 on the last beat the a in the upper-voice is not together with the b in the bass, but that´s so minor, because he plays it in a masterly way. You should be able to play it like him, before doing such critiques here, which are unadequate IMO.

    BTW, I connected my new scanner to my pc. Here is the passage we are talking about for everyone (one of my first scans with the new scanner, but it´s a bit too big, sorry for that):
     
  19. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    This interpretation of Arrau, recorded at the end of the seventies by Philips within an integral of the Chopin nocturnes, was the one that makes me to love and then to play this nocturne. May be the first recording of the version of the early autograph kept today at the Valldemossa Chopin Museum, because at this time it just has been discovered. Benjamin Moser, a German candidate at the 2007 Tchaikovsky competition played it in the final phase. According to what I read, it is the only known autograph but there was at least another autograph, which was lost. I am interested in any correction or complement to this information.
     
  20. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Didier wrote:
    Thank you for listening again. I´m glad you like it better now. :D

    I can understand this and I agree. It´s one of the most famous and inspiring recording of the manuscript version, a real "classic".

    That´s exact my stand of information. I can´t add something here and I agree, it would be interesting to meet corrections or complements, if there are some.
     

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