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Chopin Marzurka op33/2 for you.

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by johnmar78, Oct 21, 2006.

  1. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Hi Guys, after 10X a day training........this is what i get for you to enjoy. Especially to Chris Breemer. My name is not Chopin, but I learned from him to dedicate my)his) music to "people". Please enjoy......

    Note. Chopin used the word Mazurka and ideas for his composition, by all means this should not be used or compared in "actual" dance. thanks
     
  2. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    I believe this is one of the hardest Mazurkas, both technically and interpretatively (spelling ?). Hats off for everyone who dares to record it.

    You have most of the notes, which is a good start, but it seems to me there is a lot more work to do (this one probably requires a 20-time a day drill :wink: ). The tempo is hardly Vivace (more like Allegretto), the rhythm is jerky (especially in the middle section), the LH chords ill-defined, the middle voice almost non-existent, the trills unsteady, and you seem to omit a lot of notes especially in the RH (or perhaps they are just not audible, I have the same problem sometimes). The important 3rd beat accents are not heard, and I think you need to work a bit more on the dynamics.

    Not sure whether you suggest that Mazurkas have nothing to do with dance (your writing tends to be confusing) but I think they do, and this one is a jolly romp. It definitely needs to be more vivacious even if that means taking risks. This is actually one that you can throw caution to the winds and let rip. It still feels like dutifully going through the notes. In the coda, you observe neither the accellerando or the smorzando (it's very difficult, I know...), or the crescendo in the closing bars. That pause before the closing note sounds rather clumsy (you could cut that out with your software :twisted: ).

    Well sorry for all the niggles, but I always give everyone the good, the bad and the ugly. I know you can do better than this.
     
  3. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Hi Johnmar,
    Techneut is right that this could go a bit faster. I hate to say that because it's so (%#&@) (that's a swear word) hard to play super fast. Do we really know how fast Chopin's vivace was, I wonder? Is it written down anywhere what number on the metronome?

    Anyway, yes- the accents on the third beats. My score shows them on practically every measure except when it drops down to pp. And if you could get the trills or grace notes to come off better the whole piece would be more...light, graceful, perky, not sure what word I'm searching for. This is a happy little piece that puts a smile on the listeners face, especially at the very end. You're doing well with this so far. Just smooth it out a bit, (it's a little herky-jerky) and accent the third beats.
     
  4. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Just listened to Rubinstein's recording on http://classic.chubrik.ru/Chopin/Mazurkas_Rubin.html
    In fact he plays it much the same tempo as John. A bit too laid back for my taste, but great freedom and exquisite dynamics and detail in his performances. I should really listen to all of these before continuing my recordings.
     
  5. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    I second that! (for myself, not you :lol: )
     
  6. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Well I just listened to Evgeny Kissin play this as well as Rubinstein. Johnmar, you play it like Rubinstein, as far as the left hand. He plays with more of the jerky sound too, so what I said before must be wrong. Then I listened to Kissin and his left hand is less jerky. But, I think it may be the use of the pedal. Rubinstein seems to use no pedal and therefore it sounds dry and more jerky-like. The Kissin recording sounds like he uses more pedal, or maybe it's the reverb. I'm attaching the Kissin version to this post so you can hear what I'm talking about. I guess it's just a matter of personal taste.
    [EDITED BY ROBERT, DELETED THE ATTACHMENT]
     
  7. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Yes, Rubinstein sounds a bit dry, and extremely free and relaxed to the point of being laid-back (I don't think he is 'jerky'). I would not necessarily want to ape him in everything - there can be a bit more tension and drama than he provides. But he is worth listening to, and learning from, for the sheer joie de vivre (bit of a cliche, that....) and after all, he is of Polish stock so there should be something special about his playing of Chopin's most 'Polish' works.

    Kissin's is of course extremely good also, more brilliant and imperious but also a touch impatient and, dare I say it, diffident in places. Somewhere halfway between these two giants would seem just right to me.

    Now, johnmar and pianolady, we know what we are up to ... we better get to practice :shock:

    "Mazurkas r us"
     
  8. robert

    robert New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Sorry pianolady but I really had to remove your attachment. The recording you attached is of course copyrighted and we cannot have that on our site.
     
  9. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Oops. Sorry, Robert. I forgot about that.
     
  10. PJF

    PJF New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I like your playing, JM. It's very much in the spirit of Chopin. Of course, note errors and stuff like that are correctable with practice; you are apparantly diligent and disciplined in your practice habits. It seems that every time I hear you play, you improve. Your honesty and work ethic show. The occasional use of the metronome might help, but that's just more niggles! (I love that word.)

    I would prefer a more relaxed tempo, with concentration on the rhythmic Mazurkaesque accuracy and plasticity of melodic line. More 'space' (if that makes sense) between soft and loud would help. Not all the notes need equal emphases. In a word, contrast.

    Pierre
     
  11. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    thanks for every one. I am very proud of my work. and your valuable critques.
    To be honest, the only time I heard this music played(op33/2) was in one of the chopin festival on the TV, but played without piano. I was inspired by the tempo they USE--never mind if I played too slow or just right or like Rubestien tempo... I never listened to any other master played...but I will later on...when I got time??.

    The ending was a bit controvesial..I did it my way..haaaa. I acclerated a bit and slowed down at the end. But somedays, I would play the ending a little calmer......

    At least I have proved that I played with my own interpretation with out any reference......


    Meanwhile, I will work a little on the middle voice-the thumb.

    Ps, I noticed the third beat accent right from the beginning, its me that I dnt want to OVER accented since the notes(chord) itself has already got more notes than the second beat...check for youself), so in theory it should give a little more volume than the second beat naturally. Perhaps I should add a little more......2 %.
     
  12. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    This is what I usually do too. It seems to have a certain artistic honesty. Yet, there is so much to be learnt by listening to the masters. My teacher insists one should not go and play any piece without listening to at least 3 different master interpretations, comparing them, and making up your mind what you want yours to sound like. I see the point of it, and yet I am not sure I agree with it.
     
  13. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    thank Chris. I listened to RUbestein a minutes ago. Very artisitc, this is the masters. I should sort of listen to Igrid version.....


    Back to what I said before about the chopin marzurka vs actual dance. I was reading the marzurka history 15 years ago -no bull when doing my conserv. diploma trainning.....It said in the score that chopins mazurka tempo was generally TOO fast for actual physical dance but purely for thye ideas ONLY. unless what I read is wrong and dnt beleive what you read??

    Thast why at my playing I tried to play as happiers as I can but not rushing it. EVEN in the next ten years. I think I would ruied the happy melody if I go too vivance....
     
  14. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I just listened for the second time about Rubeinsteins playing....total time =2.48 vs mine 2.42.
    I noticed that he had three differnt tempos. Very good and lots of flexiability and make your own rules as you like... I liked the ending bar where he slowed down even it does not mention on the score-schimers version. Just for this time, or Rubeins recording..he showed me or inspired me that excessive rubato is allowed or in his way in three(2) movements...........very good -----Thanks Chris.

    This makes me wonder.....a more freedom is required and just imagine if you tried to dance with that mazurka....with vaiiable speed. This also backed up to my saying before---dnt use chopins marzurka vs actuall dance. Whats your opnion??????

    Ps.Thanks for the recoding Chris thats wounderfullllllllll...
     
  15. PJF

    PJF New Member Piano Society Artist

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    If Rubenstein used three different tempos, only he really knows why.

    It can take a long time to undo the powerful bias one gets listening to recordings. I suggest listening to as many recordings as possible. There must be dozens of great recordings of Chopin's Mazurkas.

    PF
     
  16. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Very well done. "only he really knows why" , this is because he was one of the best chopin interpreter at the time. My friend Richard-the one taught me tunning. He met him in 1955 ?when he visted adelaide gave a concert.
     
  17. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    John, hats off for the undertake to practise and record that difficult mazurka!

    In my opinion the tempo is ok so, I would not play it faster. Don't care for Rubinsteins or others vivace, find your own.You also play the pp places perceptible softer than the loud ones.

    However according to your great postings like 10/1 I know that you really can do better on this piece. Chris already told in his matchless manner about rhythm issues, especially in the middle part, but also in the end part and in small doses almost everywhere. That is no rubato, there is uneveness. Please take it positive, because technical wise you are able to play that piece calm and relaxed. Listen to your right hand accompaignment beside the melody, lots of notes were missing.
    Practising with metronome makes perhaps only sense if you switch it on for every quarter note, not every bar. After that some kind of rubato may start. Maybe you can manage to long for the more sophisticated expression things like the written accents in the score.

    Keep on with that piece!


    Your teacher is right, I think. There is so much one can learn by listening to true masters of the art, regardless on piano or on organ. The only danger in my case is, that I often (if not always) try to speed up to soon in order to reach the speed I have from certain recordings in the ear. That is really a big problem for me, maybe for others too. But no doubt, everyone here can benefit through listening what the best of the best have to tell in their sidereal recording hours!
     
  18. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Sidereal :?:

    Yes very true. But I think it is quite dangerous to form a preconception of a piece before you even start to play it. More often than not this leads to emulation and combinations of different styles and tricks of the trade. It also can lead to an unsure and impersonal style. I find it much better to form one's own fresh opinion first, and only when you have your own conviction, slowly take in what others have to say about it. Of course then there's the risk that you realize you've done it all wrong... but it is from doing things wrong that one actually learns the most.
     
  19. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

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    I tried to translate the German "Sternstunde" into english "Sidereal". That means, what is captured on CD from artists at the peak of their capability.

    There is nothing wrong to emulate and combine different styles and tricks in my opinion. Beg, borrow and steal from whose who have something to say, that is what helps for us amateurs. I don't think one should criticless long for a take over of a certain interpretation. But I don't believe that any of us could reinvent the wheel in a better way than what the best of the world have already invented. So careful listening to as much different master interpretations as possible that is what broadens the horizon and eventually leads to a more convincing own interpretation.

    Maybe it is a good idea to FIRST build a fresh own opinion and trying to incorporate something from the masters as SECOND step. The danger is however that muscle memory has already established this way. To reprogram the muscle memory is always a hard way - well, it can be that one learns the most from doing things wrong first. But if their is any chance to do the things right from the beginning, this seems to be more effective.
     

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