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Chopin - Lento con gran espressione

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by Didier, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Didier,
    first let me say, I´m happy, that you are back again. :D
    I enjoyed very much this deeply felt and expressive recording and the marvellous professional sound-quality as we are used from you.
    Generally I have nothing to add to what Monica and Chris have said. I agree at hundert percent to what Chris told you about (your old) rhythm-problem: the rhythm is unsteady at some places (f. ex the eigth at the beginning and similar places). The best way to solve such problems is indeed to practise Bach-pieces! (Oops, did this come from me now or was it a quotation? :lol: )
    But on the other side this recording wins so much by its musicality, there are so subtle and nice interpretative moments, that I only can say, I love it!
    And have my sincere congratulations to the excellent runs at the end! They sound really professional.
     
  2. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thank you very much for Monica and Chris for you reviews.

    Oh yes, Monica! I always welcome your comments even when they are negative, because they help me for playing better.

    You both commented about the lack of finition of my trills. I acknowledge that it is my greatest concern now in this piece. In the bars 5, 18 and 47 specifically pointed out by Monica, I have changed my fingering after having read a recent interview from Maurizio Pollini where he acknowledged the teaching from Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, especially a mixing of 1-3 and 2-3 for the trill, which is what I do now instead of 2-3 before. I think that my progress margin is larger with this new fingering than with my previous one.

    This is a particularity of the autograph version kept in Valldemossa museum: there are ten notes in the second half of bar 53 instead of eleven in other versions, the last but one of which, a E5, is not in the autograph. I remarked this only one year go, and indeed encountered some difficulty to remove this E5 that was 'very ingrained' in my fingers. I feel more emotive strength in this run with ten notes than with eleven.

    Despite I think that it is a bit better in this new recording, I acknowledge that I am not yet at the point where my rhythm variations can be considered as an artistic license. I loook forward to get this point. :wink:
     
  3. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thank you Andreas for your kind words! Actually I was not gone. But I am not able to provide excellent recordings with prodigality like you do. :)
     
  4. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Sorry, I should have clarified this. I meant the missing note is in the left hand. I show the notes to be: G#-D#-C#-F#-G#-D#-B#-G#. It's the F# that is missing. Same thing happened in your previous recording.

    I didn't notice anything wrong with the RH in this measure.
     
  5. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Oh yes you're right, a low note did not sound! Is'nt it the second D# rather than the F#? That's not me. That's the piano! :p
     
  6. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Well, I listened again and thought that perhaps you were right. But then I put the file into my 'slow down' program and realllllly slowed you down so I could hear every single note, and turns out I was right! It's the F# that is missing. When it plays through at regular speed, it's hard to pick this out, but my ear heard clearly that there were only 7 notes played instead of 8 and that made the measure not add up right. Does that make sense? Sorry, I'm probably too nitpicky with this, but I really do miss that note!

    Ok, you can shoot me now.
     
  7. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Oh, no... Just continue to discuss.:)

    I performed a spectral analysis on each half-bar of bar 53 of my score. There are peaks at 104 Hz, 156 Hz, 185 Hz and 277 Hz in the first one, corresponding to G#1, D#2, C#1 and F#2. This confirms that the audible G#-D#-C#-F# arpegio at left hand is well present.
    In the second half bar, the autograph score LH is G#-D#-B#-F# while it is G#-D#-B#-G# in other versions as you said. The spectrum of this second half-bar have peaks at 105 Hz, 156 Hz, 185 Hz and 262 Hz that are the frequencies of G#1, D#2, F#2 and B#2=C3. But I cannot hear the D#. So indeed, this second half-bar sounds strange...

    I may have make a mistake because I'm tired. I attach the two clips.
     
  8. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    You should be tired. If my calculation is correct, it was very, very late when you wrote your last post! ( or early ;)) (but that's ok when it comes to talking about piano playing).

    Ok, well....about what you wrote - sorry, but most of it is over my head. I can only tell you that I hear only 7 notes instead of 8 in your bar 53. The problem occurs in the first half. I just don't hear the F#. Now when I listened again for about the 10th time, I think I hear that you might play it at the same time as another note, but even so, that would not be correct. There needs to be eight single notes in the left hand.

    I've attached a sample of just that measure (not played by me) to better demonstrate what I'm talking about. You should be able to hear eight notes played by the left hand.

    And Didier, I feel kind of bad - I hope you don't think I'm trying to drive you crazy or anything like that. I just know that you are interested in details and want to make the best recordings you possibly can, so I'm only trying to help.
     
  9. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Monica,

    I'm sure that you heard what you said. I don't know why we don't hear the same. The most important is that we agree that my bar 53 sounds bad. Moreover you was right saying that it is ingrained in my fingers because I hear the same on my previous recording. I am much indebted to you for having detected this recurrent fault that I'm going to correct. :)
    Sincerely yours,
    Didier

    PS Your bear 53 is perfect according to a score different from mine where the last LH eigth is G# instead of F# and there are 11 RH sixteenth notes instead of 10.
     
  10. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I recorded the first bars of the re-exposition of the first theme up to bar 53, which sounds better now. Monica, if you have time for replacing putting up this modified recording, I would be pleased. But if you prefer to wait for my next version, not before 6 months, I would understand you wery well. Anyway thank you for your kind assistance.
    Didier


    Chopin - Nocturne in C-sharp minor, Op. post. No. 20
     
  11. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Yay! Yahoo!! Bar 53 is perfect! All eight left-hand notes are there now. Good going, Didier. I'm so glad you solved this.

    And of course I will not make you wait another six months before putting this up. It's going up right now as I type this.

    One little thing - I didn't notice this before, but please use a lower bitrate number next time. We request something lower than 200.

    My pleasure, Didier. What good are we members if we can't help a fellow member?
     
  12. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thank you Monica. I selected 256 kbps because it is the maximum rate in the Recording guideline, while the minimum is 160 kbps. I will select 192 kbps for my next submission . :wink:
     
  13. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    192 is what I and a few other members here use. In addition to 256 taking up extra room on the server, it also takes us a longer time to process the file (which makes me a little cranky).
     
  14. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Ah yes, I did not remember these figures in the guidelines. I'll change the minimum and maximun values to 128 (adequate) and 192 (more than good enough).
     
  15. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hello,

    here my last recording. I think that it is better than my previous one.

    Didier
     
  16. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Oh dear, that sounds so sad ! You going to quit ?
     
  17. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Chris, it's not as good as a last of that kind. At least, it's my intent to survive my current cold and to make this last recording becoming a last but one in some time. :roll:
     
  18. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Didier,
    this performance has very very beautiful moments, especially the end is a pure joy to listen to. Marvellous how you manage the runs and I really love the very free rubati in the last four bars.
    On the other side there are big rhythmic problems. At the beginning the rubati are too big for my taste, and you really play rhythmically wrong in the bars 13, 19, 20, 23, 24. My tip is: do practise it first in a more stabil tempo without too much rubati and try to get the rhythmic durations of the tones in the right time and together with the right notes in the left hand. If you have got that correctly you again can go over to bigger rubati. (Just a little tip of an old pianist and friend. :wink: )
    The sound-quality is a pure delight as always, Didier! It´s such a pleasure to listen to your recording.
    Btw, have you listened to my last version of the manuscript-version I have played in Caux (Switzerland)? (It´s my best version of this piece until now.) Here is the YouTube-link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpCMKfPos8c
     
  19. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Andreas,

    thank you for your listening and your comments. I acknowledge that I'm still too far from the right rhythm at the bars that you indicate. I would add also bar 5 (according to the numbering of the Henle edition of the autograph where the introduction in counted as bars 1-4 while in you numbering the repetition is not taken into account) on the first trill. Either the first or the third quaver at LH in a four quaver arpeggio is too short. Nonetheless I consider this new recording better than my previous one. I commit to make theses bars right in my next one. :)

    Yes I listened to your live performance in Caux when you told us about it on last summer. You may have missed my comment: http://server3.pianosociety.com/new/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3605. :wink:

    All the best,

    Didier
     
  20. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Yes this sounds lovely as usual, and there are many beautiful things. I concur with Andreas though in that rhythm is still a major issue. Rubato is such a dangerous thing in beginner;s hands.... I believe one should only allowed to use it after first being able to play in strict tempo. Not sure if I ever recommended playing Bach :p

    But even in a piece like this, maybe the best thing you could do is practice and play it metronomically, even with the metronome. Yes it is artistical murder, I know, and it will reduce the piece to rubble. But from that, you can build it up again, and it will be stronger. You really must learn the knack of playing in tempo, without involuntary rubato getting the better of you. It is you who must be in control, freedom without discipline is useless. Do you have a teacher ? If not, I say get one. Internet advice will only get you so far.

    Sorry, bit of a rant here, hope it does not sound too pedantic... I mean well. I admire the way you keep working on your goals.
     

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