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Chopin - Lento con gran espressione

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by Didier, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    The quotes in the c-sharp nocturne are as follows:

    measures 21and 22 in nocturnes is from the first movement of F-minor Concerto - measure 41 thru 44.

    measures 28-30 in nocturne are from The Maiden's Wish, which is the part that you see below. (sorry it's so small)



    [​IMG]
     
  2. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Yes, I found what you're talking about. The harmony is different, but I think you're right - that's a quote, too. :D I wish I had scores to these so I could put up the measure numbers for everyone. When I go home for Thanksgiving, I'll analyze both of them and Maiden's Wish as well and see what I can come up with - I should be able to get all of those from Sheet Music Archive. My dad has a scanner so I should be able to post excerpts :)
     
  3. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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  4. chopinman0901

    chopinman0901 New Member

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    Wow, great playing! That version is definitely different from the one I'm used to. So this is the urtext edition of the nocturne?
     
  5. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thank you for your listening and your kind appreciation. :)

    Not the urtext, only one among others because there are several sources: at least the early autograph kept at Valldemossa, and the two copies by Ludwika, Chopin's sister and the composer Oskar Kolberg, of a second autograph that would be lost. These sources are also mentioned by the urtext editions from Wiener urtext edition and Köneman Music Budapest. The question is whether both copies of the second autograph are accurate, especially regarding the polymetrics discussed above within this topic. Wiener urtext edition, while acknowledging the loss of the second autograph, states that the polymetrics were not incorporated by Chopin, but does not say on what this statement relies. But Ewal Zimmermann, the Henle editor for the Nocturnes states in his preface for the volume of the complete nocturnes that the reason why the polymetrics are not in the copies and first editions are that the copiists and the editors did not understand them:
    http://www.henle.de/katalog/Vorwort/0185.pdf.
    I got in touch with Dr Bozena Schmid-Adamczyk, who did a PhD thesis on the polymetrics in Chopin's music, especially in this piece, and is now attached to the Valldemossa museum. She told me that there would be some minor errors in the Henle score based on the first autograph, the one that I used, because E. Zimmermann did not work from the original autograph but from a photocopy, what is confirmed in the list of the sources given by Henle.

    PS By the way, the links to the scores of both posthumous nocturnes on Pianosociety are inversed. This one is well at the 20th rank but the link title is in C minor instead of C sharp minor.
     
  6. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Ok, I have replaced this on the site. It sounds nice and the only thing I noticed were a couple tiny rhythm glitches. Some of the dotted eighth notes could have been held a little longer and in bars 22 and 26 the 8th notes in the RH are uneven. Other than that it is good and I noticed you added about 30 seconds which I think is good in that it makes the overall piece more gentle and magical.
     
  7. robert

    robert Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    I think you do a good job even though I would like the runs at the end to be a bit faster.

    Something that the text does not tell about is that it was composed to Ludwika as a practice for his second piano concerto (which has some similarities). For sure tells something about the skills his sister had at the piano (if she really could play his second concerto of course, but likely, she managed pretty well).
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Bravo Didier! I liked very much among all three things: phrasing, tempo and sound (on all
    sides of your touching, your piano and your recording technique: all these three IMHO at an
    excellent level). I have some different ideas about interpretation of "dancing" lines near the finale,
    but your choice of uniformity and concentration about one (beautiful) sound of cantabile is
    coherent and convincing. Other minor things (but it's only my tastes, I like more free relations
    between singing line and accompainment lines), but your playing here is very pleasant and
    effective. Congratulations,
    Sandro
     
  9. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Dear pianomady,
    thanks again for your accurate listening, so amazing to me. I think that you wanted to indicate the uneven eigths at LH rather than RH. I agree: I am not yet OK with this polymetrics. I agree also for the too short dotted eighths.

    Dear Robert,
    thank you for your comment. Well, the 'bit faster' you would like, I would like it also, but my fingers...

    Dear Sandro,
    I am well happy that you appreciated my interpretation. The "dancing" lines are a problem to me indeed, because of the sudden change of mood. I also think that my recording technique is now better and would be hardly still improved because of the acoustics of my living room, not so bad but anyway limited by the ceiling heigth. I used two microphones pairs, one just above the rig and one sligthly off and at 1.8 m heigth. I equalized separately the two stereo tracks just to removed the room resonances below 200 Hz. I added a bit of digital reverberation to the track from the second microphone pair and mixed it at -6 dB with the track from the closest microphones.
    Many thanks again for your so kind comment,

    Didier
     
  10. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hello,

    I am addicted to this nocturne. Here attached a new recording that I would like replacing the current one available on the site. Thank you,

    Didier

    PS I have edited my post to fill the tag of the mp3 file.
     
  11. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Didier,

    Well, there are certainly worse things you could be addicted to. :wink:

    As to your recording here: I can tell you are getting more deeply involved each time you record it. You are taking more time in certain phrases and holding out long notes longer, etc...

    Just a couple little things - The introduction - I can't hear the bottom B# in the right hand.
    Bar 53 - the LH missed an 8th note, so you play only seven notes instead of eight, which is fairly obvious because all the measures have eight. Your RH notes in bars 58 and 59 and also missing some notes. I know these run are hard to play in just that perfect way, but I went back and listened to your other recording on the site, and I think you played them better on that one.

    So...knowing how you like perfecting a piece, do you feel like 'tweaking' this one anymore, or do you still want me to go ahead and replace it?
     
  12. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Monica,

    I can only agree with your comments. I just recorded again the introduction and checked that the B# is sounding now (not easy for my ears, so I performed a spectral analysis in Wavelab to be ensured that both B# are present :wink: ). The edited recording is here attached. Despite the other niggles, I think this recording is significantly better that my previous ones, both technically on some aspects, the trills especially, and overall musically. I am not keen to record this nocturne before 6 months at least because I would like to spend more time on the Schubert piece that I am currently on. Thank you for accepting this improved, yet non perfect, recording for replacement of the previous one.


    Chopin - Nocturne in C-sharp minor, Op. posth.
     
  13. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Ok - your wish is my command. :) It is done.

    See you in 6 months. :lol:
     
  14. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Didier,
    nice to hear a piece played from you again. What an expressive and muscial playing, what a sensitive sound-treatment and a wonderful sound-quality!
    The only thing I have to mention is, that there are too much rhythmical problems (uncorrectness) in it. Of course, a certain rubato in a romantic piece should be, but sometimes it´s so much, that it looses the rhythmical intention of the composer at some places. F.ex. triplets, dotted notes (so in bar 28 f.ex.) or "sixlets" (don´t know, if this is the right English expression) are not audible as such at some places. In bar 55, 56 , 57 and 58 the thiny printed notes should be devised more or less evely over the bass-figure, without, that the bass-figure falls out too much of the right rhythm. But don´t be sad about this. I played this piece many years ago and I had to practise also a lot these things I mentioned above. :wink:
    But nevertheless I enjoyed your very musical performance. I like your tempo at the begining.
    BTW, I´m working with Wavelab, too.
     
  15. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Andreas,

    thank you much for listening and commenting this. I agree on the rhythm issues. But it was still worse in my previous recording! :D I commit that my next recording of this nocturne (with the comments from Monica and your ones, I have enough to work it again) will still be better! :p

    I am not sure of agreeing with you about bar 28, which are bars 30 and 31 in my score because the two first bars and their repetition are counted as 4 bars. These are particular bars of the second version published by Henle, based on an early autograph from Chopin (read the beginning of this post for more details), the only autograph available today. Here the rhythm is at RH two eighths, two quarters at bar 30, then one quarter and one half note at bar 31, that is two 3:4 bar, and at LH eight eighths, that is a 4:4 bar. :roll: While the same part in the version that you are referring to, based on may be inaccurate copies from a later autograph, which was lost, is, like in the first version proposed by Henle, one dotted eighth, one 16th, three eighths, one dotted quarter at RH and eight eighths at LH, that is one 4:4 bar. So, my rhythm is likely inaccurate, because this is difficult to play accurately, but may be not as much inaccurate as you thought. :wink:

    I am also rather satisfied with my sound. Facing the financial crisis, I made my citizen duty by spending some money for supporting the economy and by the way getting wonderful microphones... Our government says that our bank system is much more reliable than most of the foreign systems (especially the USA and UK ones). But I don't trust them so much. :roll:
     
  16. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Didier,
    I listened again with the version you mentioned (Fassung nach der Eigenschrift, KK IVa, Nr. 16) and I remember to have played it also with this version.
    O.k., you are right concerning the concrete rhythms you mentioned, but there still are rhythmical problems. I would like to tell you, how I practised this piece. If you like, you can try it, if not, you try it not, of course. :wink:
    For me the bass-figures are the base and I practised them as evely as possible. At the begining I even took a metronome as a help. Then I took the RH together with the left hand and tried to play it totally in the right rhythm with an eve base-beat (like a Bach-piece). Now I was sure, what the composer rhythmically intended. When I was able to play it all right in an eve beat (LH and RH), but just when, I thought about my interpetation: of making rubati. I personally don´t choose a slower tempo for the begining than for the rest of the piece. And in the bars 58-61 my RH has the same tempo as at the begining. Before I played the faster "runs" I made signs in my score, which note of the melody has to come together with which bass-note. (Hope, you understand my English here.) F. ex. in bar 58 the d sharp of the melody comes together with the c sharp in the bass, then the f sharp in the bass comes exactly between the a´´ and b´´ of the melody, then the d sharp in the bass comes exactly between the b´´ and the a´´ of the melody, then the c sharp of the bass comes together with the d sharp of the melody. I worked out this for all faster runs in the upper-voice. And so the triplets, Quintolen, Sextolen and whatever there still is comes rhyhtmically in the exact time.
    May be, that sounds for you like playing Chopin like Bach, but it isn´t like this, because I do also a romantic expression. The method I described is for to suggest you a sure way to work out the exact rhythm, the composer intended.

    You made me very courious concerning your new microphones. Which type are they?
     
  17. Didier

    Didier Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Monica,

    I'm back again. :)
    My Schubert work is in good progress but should not be ready for submission here before this summer. Yes, I'm slow. :roll:

    I worked again this nocturne, looking for a simpler expression, less gravity.

    I would like that this new recording replaces my former one. I appreciate the comments from everybody who will spend some time for listening to it.

    Chopin - Nocturne in C-sharp minor, Op. posth.
     
  18. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Didier,

    Gosh, has it been six months already? Time certainly does fly!

    I will take care of this in the morning. (my morning :wink: )
     
  19. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Ok, I've replaced this. Not sure you want any comments from me, but here are some things I noticed:
    Overall, the piece flows very nicely and securely. Except for just a couple of the trills - specifically the ones at bar 5, 18, and 47. They came down either too unevenly, or too hard. I know this problem well myself, because I always struggle with trills. They give me the most headaches! Second - you are still missing that one note in bar 53. I made a comment about that on you previous posts so it must be something that is very ingrained in your fingers and impossible to change.

    I did listen to your version that was already up and noticed your trills were better in that version, but your 'little' notes in bars 58-61 were much better in this one. So, yes - this version is the best one...so far.... :wink:
     
  20. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

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    Let me say once more that I admire your patient dedication to the pieces you play. This is a very musical and deeply felt performance, and the sound is like that of a professional recording. Of course we expect no less from you ! I don't remember the details of your previous take, but this is probably better.

    I think you are a bit careless with the pedal, especially in the opening bars, and your trills (as well as some of the runs, but not all) are not very smooth. You'll need to work on that (have I already recommended playing Bach ? :p )

    But my main critique, as usual, is the erratic rhythm. There are many passages where note values seem to be quite arbitrary. Your rubato is generally fine and tasteful, but this is something different. if you could get your rhythmic pulse under control, you'd be on your way to being a good pianist, and this recording would be on its way to being a very good one ! Maybe you should be practising Bach (oops, sorry, here I go again :lol: )
     

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