Chopin - Lento con gran espressione

This is the famous piece better known as Nocturne op. posth. in C sharp minor. I play the only autograph version as published by Henle. It is an early version where there is a part with 3/4 bars at RH superposed with 4/4 bars at LH. It is not the most usual one. A candidate at the Tchaikovsky piano competition (Benjamin Moser) played this version a few days ago. It is also the one played by Claudio Arrau in his integral of the nocturnes for Philips. Of course, my interpretation is at a much more modest level, especially in this delicate part at 3/4 & 4/4.

Chopin - Nocturne in C-sharp minor, Op. Posth.

 

Thank your for you attention and your comments.
Indeed, I don't play the B-sharps on bars 3 and 4 loud enough for them being eared distinctively.
Thr 'rythm off' may be partly related to the score that I am using where two 3/4 bars at right hand correspond to one 4/4 bar at left hand. I recorded again this part while trying to do it better. Just at the beginning, the rythm is

one and two and three and four and one at left hand (one 4/4 bar) ,

one two and three and one two and three one at right hand (two 3/4 bars).

This is known as polymetry in musicology. According to the Henle editor, the versions with 4/4 at both hands could result from the hesitation of the people who copied the autographs (there were several ones, all lost but one kept in Valdemossa) or from the first editors about this novelty in the art of music writing.

 

It's hard to understand what you are talking about. You should maybe provide the score you are following, if possible.

 

A very nice interpretation. Perhaps a bit on the slow side and I would like the runs at the end to be performed faster. IMO, the second run should accelerate to maximum speed when it turns around from ascending to descending.

When it comes to editions, there exist a lot different versions of this Nocturne and it is produced from a sketch in a book which Chopin wrote to his sister Ludwika. Underneath is the text "Practise before playing my second concerto". Says pretty much about his sister capabilities on the piano. But as the sketch is rather brief, several versions exist and I cannot tell which one that is most accurate as Chopin never wanted this Nocturne to go public.

Anyway, welcome to Piano Society and if you provide me a biography, I will put you up on the site!

 

robert,
I am honoured by your invitation and I am glad to accept it. Let me a few days for sending to you a bit of biography.
Yes indeed, I am usually on the slow slide...

Chaotica,
I agree that my explanation was not so clear. Here attached the part of interest from the score.

pianolady,
if you like this piece, you should try this version. It's a good exercise for the independency of both hands and it results in music flowing more freely than in the full 4/4 version, if it is perfectly done.

 

The recording is up on the site.

 

Hello,

I recorded again this nocturne. I think that the sound at least is better. I prefer also the second section here. Might replace my current recording on the site ?

 

Thank you again pianolady for your careful listening. I am afraid that I have been doing this mistake for a long time.
When I will have improve significantly the trills, which shall happen some day hopefully, I will record this nocturne again and correct this mistake. :wink:

 

Does anyone else think that Chopin might not have wanted this published because of the bit of score that Didier posted? 3 movement of the F minor concerto, anyone?

EDIT: Now that I've listened to it a bit more, there are quite a few more similarities than just that...holy crap, that bit in the middle is directly from the end of the second movement of that concerto...no wonder he didn't want this one published....

 

Eh. I own that book. It's been a while since I read it though. And it has more than one quote from that concerto...at least 3 that I can think of...

 

I don't remember the first version in detail, bit I think you have improved. Overall it sounds pretty good, although rhythmical control should remain a point of attention. The runs at the end sound great even though they are not entirely perfect. Keep up the good work !

 

I know it would be really hard to explain this in words, but can someone point out where the 3 quotes from the concerto is? I know where one of them is... I think. How about the quote from The Maiden's Wish?

 

It would be easier if I had the scores to any of them - I don't, so I can't give you measure numbers. One of them is, if you listen to the very end of the second movement of the second concerto, that slow, drawn-out arpeggio to the top of the keyboard is quoted exactly in the middle of the nocturne. Also, the very opening melody of the third movement of the concerto is quoted starting at measure 21 of the nocturne, which you can see in the bit of score that Didier provided. And then, there is some mazurkish stuff going on that isn't exactly quoted from the concerto but is so similar that I call it a quote.

I have always wondered whether the 3rd movement of the concerto should be called a mazurka, or not. Zimerman does parts of it in that mazurkish tempo that Chopin was critized for in his time. But only parts of it...and indeed, some parts of it seem very mazurkish and other parts not...

 

Thank you for clearing that up for me!

The third movement doesn't quite seem to have the characteristics of a mazurka, at least in the beginning. It doesn't have any of the characteristic triplets, I believe, and isn't usually played with nearly as much rubato as Chopin's mazurkas. I always found the main theme of the third movement to be kind of a waltz. I emphasize the "kind of..."

 

Well, it's the triplet part that I was talking about that was "kind of" quoted in the nocturne. And this is also the part that Zimerman plays in the slightly "off" mazurka tempo.

Also, I don't know the Maiden's Wish, but I'm assuming that the opening theme of the nocturne is this theme, because it's not from the concerto. I'm going to get a recording of the Chopin songs one day....the only one I know is Wiosna...

 

Oh my God! Eureka!

Think about the melody of the first few measures of the nocturne we are speaking of. There is a part of the 2nd movement of the 2nd concerto with the same melody! It's about halfway through the movement where it gets kind of agitated, and while it isn't even close to being exactly the same notes, it is the same melody. I hope everyone understands what I'm talking about. Do you think this quote was intentional as well? I guess it would be too much of a coincidence if it wasn't. It definitely seems like this nocturne was written as a supplementary excercise to the concerto, if not a supplementary piece.