Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)

I am posting these in three separate messages since apparently there is a 10-attachment limit. Strange, since I know I have uploaded more than that before, but oh well, it is what it is.

Finally finished recording the Chopin preludes. A few specific notes on the recording:

1. I used entirely different miking for this recording. And the mics are....none other than the two little stereo mics on the top of the Zoom H4N, which are amazingly good I must say. Finally, the piano sounds like our piano. This is after years of frustration using the AT 4033s, which are very good mics, but I was never able to achieve the right balance. I'm no audiophile by any means -- I just want something that's clear and basically even across the range, and this is much more satisfactory to me in that regard. Hopefully it will be to listeners too. I don't know why I didn't think of this when I got it since the mics are right there. Oh well, live and learn, the story of my life :roll:

2. I tried to focus on balance and phrasing throughout -- thanks to the helpful PS comments on that subject in the past. IMO it's also the primary aspect that makes the preludes so difficult to play with their often rather lush accompanimental figures. No. 3 in particular I think I sang the melody much better than in the past. As to Nos. 4 and 6, I think better achieve what I want to do with the rubato without distorting the rhythm too much, so I'll be interested to see what you think (especially Monica :wink: ).

3. There are some small slips in a few of the most difficult preludes. I think mostly they went pretty well, but oh well, shit happens I am pleased to continue my present trend of completely unedited recordings (with the exception of reverb of course), and the problem with doing multiple takes of the most difficult preludes is of course that they're physically tiring, so most were in one or two takes. Nos. 12 and 16 are the most difficult for me by far. No. 12 is the only one that's really difficult for me physically and I worked my ass off on it and was fairly pleased with the final result, though I probably slowed down more than I wanted in the middle section. As for 16, I believe von Bulow called it "Hades" and no description seems more apposite to me since it is a piece from hell! One passage at the end (right leading in to the final arpeggios), no matter how much I practice it in isolation and play it perfectly, gives me problems in the final performance :x In other words, I apologize for it, but there's a couple of more significant flubs in this one I changed some fingerings in the past couple of months so I will probably return and redo it when they've had more time to sink in to my reflexes.

All in all, I'm glad that I've at least made a big improvement in these from the past, recognizing that they are work for a lifetime. Much of my time has been spent eradicating bad habits that I don't have with other works, since this is the first complete Chopin set that I learned in my youth. Sorry to ramble on, especially in my initial post; it always seems to happen regarding Chopin :wink:

Comments are very much appreciated (don't worry, I saw the discussion of "enjoy" in another thread :lol: )


Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 1: Agitato (0:35)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 2: Lento (2:27)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 3: Vivace (1:00)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 4: Largo (1:57)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 5: Molto allegro (0:34)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 6: Lento assai (1:53)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 7: Andantino (0:42)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 8: Molto agitato (1:53)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 9: Largo (1:11)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 10: Molto allegro (0:32)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 11: Vivace (0:36)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 12: Presto (1:09)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 13: Lento (2:56)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 14: Allegro (0:33)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 15: Sostenuto (4:51)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 16: Presto con fuoco (1:08)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 17: Allegretto (3:14)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 18: Molto allegro (0:59)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 19: Vivace (1:14)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 20: Largo (1:22)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 21: Cantabile (1:46)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 22: Molto agitato (0:42)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 23: Moderato (0:49)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 24: Allegro appassionato (2:22)

 

Joe,
First my hat goes off to you for accomplishing such a difficult project! Kudos! (As I may have said before, there are several pieces here that I just don't care for, even if Chopin wrote them.) My favorites of your performances are: 8, 13, 15, 16. There is much fine playing throughout, but I thought you did and extra cut above on those for me. Congratulations.
Eddy

 

Bravo!!!! This is the most ambitious undertaking I've heard in my 3 year tenure here! The 24 Preludes are truly a monumental undertaking for any pianist - professional or amateur. Personally, I find that these works are a good measure for any pianist, both musically, and technically - Perhaps even a "Holy Grail" of pianistic achievement, IMHO! I don't know whether you're professional, student, or amateur?... It will be difficult to comment without knowing anything about your background because Preludes like Nos. 8, 12, 16, 19 are not for amateurs.

However, there are places where there's room for improvement in terms of musicality. No. 24 too fast to savor the pathos, too flip in the left hand, ending is awkwardly disjointed (I thought you were going to give up on the last 2 Ds). Nos. 16, and 18 showed liberties with addition of extra notes at the end. No. 12 was a bit rushed at the end. I didn't listen to all of them, but I notice that on the melodic slower Preludes, there is greater need for musical maturity, e.g. Nos. 4, 6, 15, 17, 20, 21. More sensitivity to touch needs to be implemented, and in certain parts erratic and exaggerated rubato takes away from the performance.

In terms of technique, you have it, even though a bit more clarity can be had on the more difficult passages. However, I come away with the feeling that you play like an engineer - technically great, the notes are there for the most part, but musically not quite satisfying on some of the Preludes. Forgive me for being blunt, but I don't know if you're a professional or a student? I am assuming that you are based on the completion of a difficult set of Preludes... However, If you're an amateur, then don't take it personally. You are a part of an elite few who has succeeded on a rare feat! In any case, congratulations!

As far as mics are concerned, I wish you contacted me, I would have lent you mine for such a large scale project. Heck, I've done it in the past for others. Your AT-4033 is a cardiod - difficult to get a natural sound from cardiod pattern. It can sound thin in the bass, certain notes can even sound "out of tune" due to off-axis response if you place them too close to the strings. You're far better off using an omnidirectional or a wide-cardiod mic, even in a "bad room" - just bring it closer to the strings, to minimize the room effects. Don't worry about getting too close, because when you add reverb later, the sound diffuses and gives the illusion of adding more distance so as to balance the overall sound at the end. If you want some suggestions on recording and mics, this thread might help: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2844

George

 

Hi,

Bravo! I just listened to all 24--the whole kit and caboodle. Playing this complete set is a lofty accomplishment. Congratulations on your artistry and the prodigious technique that served your musical intentions so well. I play some of these pieces quite differently, but diversity of interpretations is one of the most interesting facets of piano performance which keeps it all so interesting. I certainly respect your decisions. Overall, this is an outstanding set. (And thanks for playing the E natural in No. 20--we're in the minority on that detail! :lol: )

I just looked through the volume. Years ago I recorded 12 of these preludes. In scanning them now, there are 7 more that I could and should learn, so hopefully I can cycle back to these pieces someday to add those to my repertoire. As for the remaining 5... I'm afraid that I'd have to leave those to pianists more capable than I.

Thanks for posting this complete set! I thoroughly enjoyed hearing it.

David

 

I listened to Nos. 8, 24, and 16 (in that order), and then I find that George has spelled out my thoughts exactly on nearly every point (including the bravo for the undertaking). It seems to me that, for example, in No. 8, the technique is essentially under your control, but I think you are killing yourself with the relative lack of pedal, and the time you take with certain difficulties becomes regular to the point that the line is continually disjointed. It seems to me that you could easily eliminate that problem with just a little more pedal - I understand the temptation to make every line clear in this one, but I doubt it was intended to be played quite that way - this is one of those that in my opinion needs a lot of half-pedaling, and subtle pedaling. One can hear the effects of tension in your hands, and I think that's especially so in No. 16 (out of the three I listened to), but also evident in the other two. It's just more obvious in No. 16 because one is accustomed to hearing the line played very smooth and legato, so those moments of tension stick out.

Again, congrats on learning all of these. The great thing about an undertaking like this is that you gain so much from it, even if you don't necessarily gain all that can be gained on the first attempt. Like the etudes, these are pieces to work on your whole life.

PS - I should add that my experience with the etudes has been similar to your experience with the preludes. There are always more bad habits to overcome, but it sure is nice to overcome them.

Me too. But what can you say about that? Obviously he likes it that way. :wink:

 

Thanks, Eddy. Always interesting to see which of these one liked best. IMHO too particularly 8 and 15 were two that came out well in terms of what I wanted to do.

 

Thanks for the compliments, George, and for your candid assessment. I appreciate that. I agree that there is always need for improvement, although not really in the same way you do perhaps (more on that in a bit).

In answer to your question, I'm fully an amateur who made the conscious decision in my teenage years not to bother with going into music, basically because I wanted to eat :mrgreen. And both my parents being classically conservatory trained pianists, my eyes were pretty open from a young age. I had the privilege of taking from a student of Cortot in college whom I learned much from technically and musically.

You may very well have some point here, but if I can also be frank, comments like this are part of why I would never in a million years have wanted to go into playing the piano professionally. It has little to do with my ego; I always welcome specific criticisms and put myself in the position of a student who has much to learn. It has more to do with the fact that I find these rather vague assertions that "critics" throw around to be meaningless crap, usually because they want to champion their personal favorite and denigrate everyone else (i.e., rather unobjectively). To illustrate, when you say that Prelude No. 24 is "too fast to savor the pathos," I frankly have no idea of what that means or whether the words even go correctly together. Literally, that would say that you find this piece as principally evoking sympathy and compassion. Perhaps we just have different conceptions of it. I personally find Cortot's description of it as "Blood, Passion, and Death" to be more fitting. To me, it is a tale of martial bloodlust brought on by war and final collapse on the battlefield represented in those final D's, and should thus be rather heroically impetuous.

The liberties I take with adding extra notes at the end? It's just octave doublings and chord fillings. My personal choice, I like the fuller effect more. And thank god I don't have to listen to cheese-sniffing critics pointing it out to me. "Unfaithful to the score! Unfaithful to the score!"

Regarding rubato, this is very much a matter of personal taste. In the modern day, one hears it, and it's usually poorly applied IMHO. Maybe it is in my case too, but I did work it out and make conscious decisions about it. Again, without more explanation, this means little to me.

As for musical maturity, that may be, but again, I have no way of even knowing what you mean. IMHO it seems a matter of courtesy to someone on a forum you are exchanging messages and ideas with, when you take issue with something, to explain why. The point really is that such things could be said about anybody's playing, even the greatest of the great, who IMO aren't great because they played it a standard way but because they played it in a new way, which is why Kissin, Pogorelich, Argerich, Ashkenazy, Garrick Ohlsson, as fluid and perfect as they are, will never interest me and I will never think they're great. (Ohlsson is one who I remembered sounding very slow and labored to me on No. 24 -- just my opinion of course.) It's all bland and boring and the same. Cortot and Sofronitsky are a different matter. I would certainly never begin to put myself even remotely in the league with any of the above. I only say it to point out that I'm a bit sick of people vaguely criticizing my "musicality," which is all that really matters to a pianist in the end (technique being a means to an end) and may largely be a matter of taste, without feeling the need to explain themselves further. But then, if you're the type who likes Kissin's or Pogo's moonings and strainings, we're probably doomed to never agree on these matters anyway. I have carefully thought through my interpretations for these. Not what you were expecting perhaps, but c'est la vie.

Sorry for me also to be a bit blunt in my reply, but I think it's better to be honest (and a good thing about PS) rather than hold it in. Thanks again for the compliments and your advice about recordings etc. I respect your comments about musicality but, even upon relistening, don't really understand them.

Joe

 

I can see why you'd say this, but the piece is, after all, a "Molto Agitato." Therefore, whether I'm capable of it or not, I personally don't want to adopt a prissy, fluid approach to this (i.e., Pogorelich or Pollini). This is a storm, a torrent of the vicissitudes of emotion, as well as one that is inherently rhythmically uneven, hence the agitato. The technical point of this is differentiating melody from an orchestral accompanimental figure, and there may be more work for me there in certain places, but overall I think I accomplish it. And if I may say so, amateur that I am, Pogo doesn't. He emotionally and technically misses the point of the piece. I just chose him as one example, but five others I heard, including Argerich and Ashkenazy, all sound basically the same.

Actually, I follow Chopin's pedal markings to the letter, at least in my edition (take it off right on the conclusion of each LH triplet). Listening back, it does sound clear but not overly so for my taste. I don't hear every note, but I hear that it's in eight, and that's what one should hear. Personally, I don't think anything in Chopin or any other composer should be awash in pedal. That's just covering up for what your fingers can't do.

There's really no tension in my hands at all, nor IMHO can anyone ever claim to "hear" such a thing -- at least it makes no sense to me. No. 12 I did at one point have tension with, but I overcame that. No. 16 has never been tension-building for me, just not easy to get through unscathed at a presto tempo. The problems as I see them are mainly polish on a very difficult set, mainly because I don't have 8, or for that matter, even 2 or 3, hours to practice consistently on a nightly basis.

Yes, definitely. I for one know that I will never accomplish that in my life and have no pretense to it.

 

I've increased the 10-attachment limit (which we probably thought was adequate at the time) to 50. You may want to attach your other preludes to this posting and delete the other two postings (as they've not been commented on yet), or merge the other two postings into this one.

Good playing overall, and an awesome achievement. I will put them on the site at earliest convenience.

 

On second thought, don't bother with that. I will put these up tonight and replace the attachments by links anyway. I've locked the other two threads and will remove them when done.

 

Nah, don't bother. I don't want to pollute any of the wonderful interpretations of these pieces on the site with my engineer-like and tension-filled efforts. Thanks for the time.

 

Something gone down the wrong way again Joe ?
Well if you don't want them on the site I won't put them up, easy as that.

 

Sure, your comments are welcome and you can criticize at will. What I didn't appreciate about the posts above is that one made blanket statements about my "musicality" and my playing like an "engineer" without pointing to any real details and the other made outrageous assertions about tension that she could have no way of knowing, which I resent in two people who, at least these days, never (rarely?) post any recordings of their own to be criticized. And they phrase it as statements of fact. It's quite a bit different to be told that your rubato is erratic and exaggerated flat out and be told that someone doesn't agree with it. And god, to be told that I have tension in my hands, how absurd! Oh well, I basically admitted in my initial post that these aren't finished, but as good as I can get them for now. At least I tried... :roll:

 

Yeah, no sweat. This is why I generally don't comment on recordings, but it's expected, so... :wink: I post recordings for comments sometimes, but not in the AR; I'm waiting until I produce something I can be proud of.

 

Alternatively, you could have asked yourself if there might me some truth behind these thought-provoking statements, instead of huffing and puffing about it, demanding proof and details. I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it. Personally I find it more constructive to take criticism to heart, and do something with it, than to balk against it. But ok, everybody is different.

Now just be clear about whether you want these on the site or not. It's is fine with me either way.

 

There may well be, but I will never know without the details or be able to apply a whit of it. Sad, really. In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you.

Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical.

 

Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before). After all, how can he deny that an auditor hears the effect of playing with a tense hand? It sounded tense to the listener, that's all there was to it, whether Joe accepted it or not - but of course he'll have nothing of it. His anger really surprises me. I wonder if some comments just cut "too close to home," recalling something someone more important to him than us also said?

 

Sometimes one is reluctant to be the first one to say it. Not Chris, though...surely not. :lol:

 

I admire your ability to do that. I have a very hard time dropping sweet comments on a recording when there are things about it that bother me. Even very nicely-played live performances like Rich's nocturnes, when the bothersome details are small and almost not worth worrying about (and a matter of opinion to boot).