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Beethoven - Sonata Op.22

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by techneut, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. troglodyte

    troglodyte Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    My guess: Play the final 16th in the RH at least as loud as the preceding, ie do not round off the phrase. Take care not to do a cresc in LH, ie the final Ab should still be the weakest of the triplet.

    Another way to look at it is to compare with the following measure where the dynamics makes sense (the last 16th in RH is louder than the preceding and following, despite the fact that it is on a weaker beat). Practice that first. Then phrase the first two 16ths in exactly the same way even though there is no continuation, in anticipation of the next.
     
  2. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Thanks for the ideas guys. I'm not sure I can agree to playing the second 16th louder than the first. It seems to go against the grain of anything I've learnt and heard. I think I'll stick to the good old cliche of playing the 2nd softer than the first. Though it might be an idea to listen to some recordings and find out how great pianists deal with this.
     
  3. MarkieUK

    MarkieUK Member Piano Society Artist

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    Looks like an accent on the second note from the score. It reminds of me Haydn's piano sonatas - he sometimes does this, either an accent or sforzando on the second note of a slurred pair. It can sound very effective and elegant if you get it right (i.e. not banged, but more of an emphasis).
     
  4. hreichgott

    hreichgott New Member

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    It's an accent. Normally a two-note group that starts on the beat and finishes off the beat would receive an accent on the first note. He wants it on the second note so he has to tell you specifically.
     
  5. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    It's interesting that everybody seems sure the 2nd note should be stronger. None of the half dozen performances I sampled on YT actually does that !
    Everybody plays them either the same or else the second very slightly softer. which is what I am inclined to do also. I wonder if this piece (except in the outer sections) maybe originally was for piano and violin. I guess the dynamics as written would make sense for a string player, and maybe Beethoven wanted to keep the idea even though it can't really be realized on piano. Just another of my wild ideas :roll:
     
  6. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. It's been my ecperience that if you look at such interpretative issues in microscopic detail, often even very famous pianists do things that clearly run counter to the marked intentions or which are interpretatively peculiar. It's remarkable how often dynamics aren't properly observed (and I know I've been guilty of this also). The question also has to be asked as to how authentic (and widespread) this dynamic marking is. My hunch would be that people have gone through the score and opted for what's "natural", irrespective of the contentious aspect as to what the composer's intent was.
     
  7. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I checked the autograph and these markings are indeed authentic. But I guess we can forever guess what exactly Beethoven may have wanted here, and why it would be important here of all places to defy convention and have the second note louder. I can't remember having seen
    a similar situation anywhere else. With all respect to the composer, it's not really worth agonizing over.

    On a related note, one of the Tajcevic Balkan dances I recently recorded has glissandi marked crescendo. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to do that either, maybe by gradually depressing the sustain pedal ? Or by gradually increasing finger position and/or pressure ?
     
  8. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    My experience would be that (upwards) glissandi tend to have an innate cresc anyway, if you are doing them with the sustain pedal depressed. However I would be inclined to exaggerate that/create an illusion of increase by starting more slowly and applying an accel through it.
     
  9. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Yeah makes sense. Glissando would be an interesting discussion topic in itself. I can't remember if we ever had one.
     
  10. MarkieUK

    MarkieUK Member Piano Society Artist

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    Copying and engraving mistakes aside, I think Beethoven is the one composer whose dynamic markings should always be followed, as he never wrote anything he didn't mean to be realised in the music. These second note accents remind me of the empfindsam style of the mid-18th century, where notes are often accentuated in unusual places.
     
  11. hreichgott

    hreichgott New Member

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    Were you listening to performers who are both knowledgeable and recent enough to have access to urtext editions?
    I listened to Ronald Brautigam and he definitely does both accents, the first by taking extra time and the second by a marked increase in volume.
     
  12. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    I listened to Brendel, Schnabel, Pollini, Kempff, Pollini, Gould, Daniel Shapiro, Dennis Mathews, and Anna Radchenko. I seem to have missed Brautigam's recording. he's an interesting pianist.
     

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