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Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by felipesarro, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    Hi, everybody!

    I've studied baroque practice lately, and since I got a new piano, I thought it would be a good idea to remake some of my Bach.
    So here it is a little Sinfonia to be evaluated.
    And just for fun... I've attached a Chopin etude I'm still working on =D

    Regards,

    Luís Sarro

    Bach - BWV 797 - Sinfonia No. 11 in G Major (2:06)
     
  2. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    This is the original recording.
    The other one above was "normalized" because I thought the volume was too low. But now I think the original volume is much better. This should replace the previous one above.
     
  3. musical-md

    musical-md New Member

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    I'm afraid I don't get your accordion-like expansion and contraction of the meter/tempo, but I do like what you do with the ornaments. But since the flow is more important to me than the dressing, this doesn't satisfy. This sinfonia provides some opportunity for expert voicing of suspensions. Personally I would like to hear another version.
     
  4. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    Hi, musical-md!

    I'm glad you pointed that.
    In fact, I have studied historically oriented performance of baroque music lately. What you call "expansion and contraction" of tempo, in fact are tenutos for "good" notes and inegalité. These are described in several old music treatises, such as those of Couperin and Quantz (I don't know if CPE Bach talks about them in his essay, because I haven't read it completely).

    I have read the Badura-Skoda book on Bach keyboard performance, and I have studied it with two teachers in college. In this second semester, I'll have classes with Judy Tarling (she's coming to Brazil in September!).

    Unfortunately, pianists don't care about playing baroque music in an authentic way. After studying Badura-Skoda's book, I discovered that not even Tureck, Gould, Schiff of Perahia are true to how this music was conceived. Though harpsichordists ALWAYS play with much rubato! Baroque music has much more rubato than the romantic one, though these two are very different: in baroque, you only hold the "good" notes. In romantic music, you can hold the "bad" (weak) ones.

    The only two pianists who play in a historically oriented way on the piano are Badura Skoda and Wolfgang Rubsam (he's famous for being an organist).

    This is the Badura-Skoda book I have read:
    http://www.amazon.com/Interpreting-Bach ... skoda+bach

    It's not only about good notes and inégalité, but also about ornaments and articulation. Articulation is the most difficult of all, in my opinion, since Bach didn't write any on his keyboard music.. :roll:
     
  5. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    I couldn't find any sinfonia played by Gustav Leonhardt on YouTube, but this transcription of the chacona can serve as an example (I'm studying Brahms transcription for future recordings):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXRIr78A5xg

    On a chacona, the 2nd beat must be held (just like on a sarabanda).
     
  6. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    That sounded very nice to me, Luis! I'm not a huge Bach fan, but it's because many of the recordings I listen to all sound the same - banging along with no variation in dynamics, pedal, tempo, rubato, etc and all I hear are thousands of notes that blur together and it just gets boring after about a minute. But this 'historically correct' way of playing is so much better. I know you've studied this subject intensely and we here at PS need to respect that. Thank you for teaching me by sending me those recordings :wink: ; I almost like Bach now! :lol:

    One question - have you had your new piano tuned yet? I'm not sure if it's settled in yet, some notes sounded a little off.
     
  7. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    Who sold me this piano was my piano tuner. I have a free tuning scheduled after 6 months of usage. That's because any tuning right now wouldn't last, since the piano takes time to get accostumed to the new environment. :roll:

    Is it too bad? If it's too bad, I'll have to re-record it after 5 months. :D

    But if you let me say something... Bach's music was not written for our equally tempered tuning. Not even Beethoven's music was. :D
    Okay... but I know beans about non-equal temperaments... I don't know if my out-of-tune piano is good or bad for this music. :lol:
     
  8. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    No, it's not bad. Just a little off here and there. But my own piano sounds weird to me and I just had it tuned a month ago (a new tuner).

    I don't think you added any reverb though, right? I think a little would be nice - it sounds pretty dry as it is now, but maybe that's how you like it...?

    I'll let Riley process the recording and then I'll put it on the main site afterwards.
     
  9. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    I didn't add any reverb (but wait... you're getting my second submission, not my first one, right?)
    I'd like some tips on this. What kind of reprocessing does Riley do? I'd like to know it, then I myself could do this in my future recordings. =D
     
  10. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Yes, I listened to the second file. Regarding reverb...you have to try out a lot of different settings in order to learn what you prefer. It's a little tricky...you want some but not so much that the piano sounds weird.

    Riley doesn't do anything that changes the sound. He just checks the tags and file name, uploads the file onto the server, and then replaces your attachment with a link.
     
  11. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    Oh, I see.

    The problem is that my ear is not good for checking audio quality... for example, I wasn't finding the sound dry. And if I start adding reverb, I'll do much more than the necessary, for sure. :oops:

    But I'd like to use a plug-in such as a "soudn booster", somthing that makes the piano sound less thin.
     
  12. pianoman342

    pianoman342 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    Hi Luis,

    I had a listen to your Bach, it sounded good, if slightly more dry than the Szames recording that is already on the site. The "accordion type" phrasing is appealing to me personally. All the better if it is historically informed :)

    I have replaced your upload with a link. Check to see that it plays ok.
     
  13. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    Me too! I decided to study historically informed baroque practices because I this rubato is very appealing to me too!

    Thanks, Riley!
    I can't check the link now because I'm travelling and now I'm here:
    [​IMG]
    8)
    But I'll check when I get home, next week.
     
  14. richard66

    richard66 Richard Willmer Piano Society Artist

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    Hello Luis,

    Interesting effect this one, though I must say I was wondering why all the suspensions, if that is how they are called.
     
  15. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    hi, Richard!

    thanks for listening.
    I didnt clearly understand what you mean... the suspensions are there. Inegalite (unevennes) and ornaments dont alter them.
     
  16. s_winitsky

    s_winitsky Member

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    Hi Luis, nice version of the g minor sinfonia.

    I actually didn't think you necessarily used too much rubato (or whatever people call it.) I guess I use too much :)

    I was a bit surprised by the regular heavier emphasis on the third beat. I guess you were maybe trying to give it a more dance like feel or a historically accurate sound? I thought the regular accents gave it that accordion like sound, at least for me.

    Anyway it was nice to hear another sinfonia submission.

     
  17. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    hi, winitsky!

    I didnt have in mind any dance. baroque is a very complex period. Inegalite can be used at freedom by the performer. you can even dont use it. there are some orientations in old treatise (such as to linger the 2nd beat of sarabande and chacone), but it also depends on the harmony. in fact, I usually hold the 3rd beat here for Bach's fault! hehe
    through all this piece, almost always the 3rd beat has a longer note.

    but the baroque practice leaves much freedom to the performer. this is not obligatory.
     
  18. pianolady

    pianolady Monica Hart, Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist

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    Luis, I just sent you a pm.
     
  19. musical-md

    musical-md New Member

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    I have not studied the Baroque practice of inegalite but feel there's something amiss here. I think the idea that the inequality extends to the meter is erroneous, but would welcome some references for this. Unfortunately I have all my earthly belongings in storage while I am between houses. However, I was able to find an article on the subject on the French language Wiki that seems well documented. From my read of it, this principle extends to RHYTHM and articulation, dynamics but NOT meter. Have a look at it:

    http://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inégalités_dans_la_musique_baroque

    I believe, as is the case frequently, that there is a direct analogy of Baroque music with that of jazz music in which in this case it may be written "straight" but is performed with a swing (inegalite), but the tempo is steady with equal beats. I can't wait to have access to my references once moved in and really do appreciate this topic coming up so that it may be discussed. Thank you Felipe.

    Edit: I just found an English language article at:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_inégales#section_1
     
  20. pianoman342

    pianoman342 New Member Piano Society Artist

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    :shock: next time you plan on going there buy me an extra ticket would ya?! :)

    Riley
     

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