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Bach Partita 6

Discussion in 'Submission Room' started by felipesarro, Jun 7, 2009.

  1. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Well, the tempi of the dances are still fairly well understood, since those dances never really went out of style completely. Allemande is a slow-ish 4, Courante a fast 3, Sarabande a really slow 3, etc.

    Yes, and it was typical for the ornaments to be complicated (by improv) on the repeats, for certain - such as in the da capo aria style, where the repeat of the A section is intended to be an opportunity for the singer to show off his/her technique. Angela Hewitt made a video about playing Bach on piano that I recommend - it's sort of difficult to watch because of her on-camera personality (sort of like watching Lang-Lang can be a bit torturous), but it's packed with good information, including information on how to play the "understood" ornaments.

    Indeed...and in a similar manner, the music of Chopin is not intended to be as open to dynamic and tempo changes as most people assume. :lol:
     
  2. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    Thanks, Terez!
    I'll watch the video. I never listened to Hewitt's Bach (only her Ravel).

    but "slow", "fast" and "really fast" doesn't mean much. hehehe
    that baroque expert said that this courante should not be played very fast...
    and sometimes Allemande can be fast, can't it?
    at least, this is what Wikipedia says: "Corelli wrote allemandes ranging from largo to presto"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allemande

    I remember there was a discussion about it in Bach's 4th French Suite, whose Allemande I like to play slow (and holding the notes with great legato, pretending the sound of an organ), but the two versions here in PS are fast.
     
  3. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Yeah, and though I'm sure she had good reasons for saying it, I'm not so sure that's the case. And yeah, we don't know exact tempi for these dances, but we have some idea of what tempo should be by the form of the dance - that is why I disagree with her on this courante; much slower, and it doesn't sound like a dance at all - she knows that, but she was trumping that wisdom with CPE's comment about the "little notes" - probably because I got nervous and messed up a few parts of it on my jury, and she was trying to tell me that it wasn't expected for it to be played that fast. She said, "no one plays it that fast". I wanted to say, "but Gould does!", but she is one of those that thinks Bach should be played without pedal, totally harpsichord-ish, so I doubt she would have appreciated the comment. :lol:

    I was not aware that Corelli used tempo markings at all. But then, I don't know much about Corelli's music at all (I could have sworn this was almost unheard of in his time - hell, even idiomatic instrument writing was rare then, and I think Corelli was a pioneer there). I've only studied him in context of vocal music.
     
  4. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    shame...
    I've only LISTENED to him in the theme of "Corelli Variations", by Rachmaninov. :oops:
    :lol:
     
  5. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    Sorry to resurrect this thread, but Felipe and I were discussing earlier the matter of dotted patterns in the opening of the toccata, and whether he double-dotted them because he knew it was a performance practice commonality, or just because he liked it that way, and he said the latter (because he liked it that way, and his teacher didn't complain). Anyhow, I've just attended a master class on performance practice, mostly concerning ornaments, done by our local baroque performance practice expert, and one of the things she mentioned in her lecture was this practice of double-dotting when single dots are written. She said it was quite common, especially in this sort of context (the toccata, which is normally improvisational).
     
  6. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    hi, Terez!

    at first, I'm a man, not a woman, so you can remove the s of every "she" you wrote. :lol: (I don't know where you're from... 'Felipe' is a "common" latin name -- for men.
    written this way, it's Spanish. in Portuguese it's Filipe. in Italian, it's Felipo, and in English it's 'Phillip'. hehe)

    thanks for your information.
    you know... I did it that way, and that sounded "natural" to me probably because I must have heard a lot of performances like this. (so it's really a common practice). but now I do know what I did, and why. hehe

    by the way... have you noticed that this is commonly done in the introduction of Beethoven's Pathetique sonata?
    when I was younger and I first noticed this, I was shocked. but now... I think I can't play that introduction rhythmically correct. It becomes more dramatic played double-dotted.

    you must be busy...
    but do you have any comments about my French Suite I uploaded later?
    you seem to be a "baroque expert", a thing I'm surely not. :roll:

    thanks a lot, Terez!
     
  7. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    what do you mean by "little notes"? you mean "fast notes", like semicolcheia (16th), fusa (32th), semifusa (64th)... ?
    if it's that... that explains why classical adagio movements are written that way.
     
  8. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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  9. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    haha, I don't know why I thought you were a woman! I thought I had remembered seeing a picture of you. I guess not! :lol:

    'Little notes' I stole from Pope John XXII, who complained about all the 'little notes' in church music of his day (c. 1325). And yes, I meant fast notes ('little' referring to their duration, I suppose).

    I have noticed that the intro to the Pathetique is often double-dotted...but I learned that one as a child from the page, years before I heard a recording. But we were discussing similar things in another thread, and it seems that some of these 'understood' practices carried well into the 19th century, so I wouldn't know which is correct.

    Also, I am far from being an expert, but I am trying to learn as much as possible. I didn't comment on your French Suite because I am not intimately familiar with it. I try to only comment on things I know well, otherwise I don't know what to say, other than, 'oh that was nice!' or some such. :oops:

    I plan on eventually becoming intimately familiar with all of Bach's keyboard music, but this semester, I am mostly studying this partita and Bach's non-keyboard solo music (cello, violin, lute and flute music).
     
  10. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    I see.
    So you are a 6th-Partita expert insted. :lol:
     
  11. s_winitsky

    s_winitsky Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    This is a cool question, even if it’s for an old thread :)

    Yes I think it must have been common practice to do this with dotted rhythms. Kind of an example were the baroque performance would take certain liberties with tempo, but in the opposite way of what you might expect :)

    Though I tend to think it’s another thing that should be done in taste, and probably doesn't fit every context. I am curious what people think in general about this.

    Actually in the case here, I would say he could have done a bit more of this, though really this is truly an excellent recording if I haven't said this already :)

     
  12. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    thanks!

    and thanks for the "he". hehehe

    you know... Baroque is really difficult to play. and I'm always cautious, because if anything is more "exaggerated", then one says it's being played romantically... and I didn't want that. hehe
     
  13. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Hi Felipe,
    I listened to the Toccata, which sounds very musically played to me. Bravo for this. I didn´t follow with score, I concentrated more on the equalization following your request in the "I´m in the mood"-topic.
    The equalazation seems really good to me, it´s nice to lift the bass a bit, but for our common recording it could be necessary to have the unequalized version (with generally no editings except cuts, of course), because I also do lift my bass quite a lot. So, may be with the "double-bass-boost" it will become to bass-heavy.
    See my settings below, please. Of course, it´s possible to change them for our recording and probably this will be necessary. That´s something I can´t say now theoretically. I will have to experiment on this, when we have our three recordings and it will certainly be a compromise concerning the different conditions of recording we all three have.

    Great Bach-playing, Felipe. Your Grotrain upright sounds really great. The only thing is, that it seems a bit distuned. Would it be possible for you to tune it for our common recording?
     
  14. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    thanks, Andreas!

    there is no equalizing here on Bach.
    about tuning, I recorded this Partita long ago. my piano has recently been tuned (the first week of september). my last recording was that of Fauré. is it too much out o tune?
    I don't think so and I wouldn't like to spend money on another tuning so early (and besides, my piano tunner has quite a complicated schedule... I should schedule the tunning 2 months before. hehe)
     
  15. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    this is the point.
    so you would add the equalizing before adding my track. since the equalizing is not the same for each one, you add my "equalized" track to your track already "equalized". there would be no double-bass-boost.

    but if you want the raw track, no problem. probably there will not be such a difference (even because there are 6 hands playing instead of only 3, which is how I play generally.)
     
  16. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Felipesarro wrote:
    All these things do make my editing not easier, you know...

    Yes, in every case send me both versions, please, the raw one and the equalized! :!:

    You do play with three hands! You really should make a video of it and show it to us. :lol:
     
  17. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    hm... so I'll send you just the raw version, is it okay?

    well... I thought there was no big deal about it. Doesn't everyone play with three hands? Or do you keep your third hand to make an auto-massage?
     
  18. musicusblau

    musicusblau Administrator Staff Member Piano Society Artist Trusted Member

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    Felipesarro wrote:
    Yes, it´s o.k., so I can do my own equalization on each file, so that they fit together at the end.

    Well, that´s it, because my neck gets cramped sometimes, if I do read all that notes while playing. If you could borrow me additionally your third hand, I would have two hands for massage, that would be perfect! :lol:
     
  19. Terez

    Terez New Member

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    This partita has two 3-voice fugues, so OBVIOUSLY Felipe has three hands! :wink:

    Well, I can play them with two hands only, but obviously I am special...

    All kidding aside, there are a few places in those fugues, especially the toccata one, where I wish I did have three hands. :?
     
  20. felipesarro

    felipesarro New Member

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    try eating something radioactive. that's what I did.
     

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