Thank you to all those who donated in 2015!



DONATION STATUS
Needed before 2016-12-31
$ 2,500
So far donated
$ 595

Arm/Forearm weight +very fast chromatic octaves

Discussion in 'Technique' started by Anonymous, Mar 4, 2007.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Hello everybody...

    Can someone give a detailed explanation of the forearm/arm weight ? (+help on very fast chromatic octaves)


    It is very appreciated
     
  2. Cydonia

    Cydonia New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ask your teacher.

    If you don't have a teacher, it's time to find one.
     
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    unfortunately here we dont have very good much teachers..... :(

    neither my teacher, she isnt that good.... she dont know the correct method to teach, she dont know about arm weight :evil: :x :(
     
  4. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Food chemist / pianist
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Home Page:
    Last Name:
    Mar
    First Name:
    John
    WEBSITE:
    http://www.geocities.com/johnmarshome/
    LOCATION:
    Sydney, Australia
    let me put it in a simple way.

    Do you know physics??in hschool.
    The word momentum(P) = mass X velocity and Force =massXAccleration

    When you throw you arm at some one with out moving your body. You are using your arm weight.
    And when you are punching someone with your body behind it, you are using both of the arm and body weight. Therefore, the later generate more momentun, there fore more power.

    Back to piano, its a delicate instrument, apply arm weight/body behind your finger stroke to the key, is so called the "weight playing".

    As a pianist, some time in your progress, you will find a tempo where a balance between your muslce reflex and momentum will give you a best efficient way. And you will starts to realize that playing fast(not too fast) is more efficient than playing too slow.

    I hope this gives you abetter motivation...


    Thanks
     
  5. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    LOCATION:
    Netherlands
    Not so. This would mean there is no momentum for a linear motion. Would be really hard to play like that.

    From wikipedia:

    In classical mechanics, momentum (pl. momenta; SI unit kg m/s) is the product of the mass and velocity of an object.
     
  6. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Food chemist / pianist
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Home Page:
    Last Name:
    Mar
    First Name:
    John
    WEBSITE:
    http://www.geocities.com/johnmarshome/
    LOCATION:
    Sydney, Australia
    sorry Chris, Its velocity. not accleration.. . my memory mistake.

    we dealing with force F(piano touch)=mass X accleartion; and momemtum P= mass(M) X Velocity(V) .
    thereforfoe Force =(P/V)X accleartion. The mass is replaced with P/V. So piano playing is effected by "linear motion"-speed and accleration. This applies to force(f).

    So by looking at the equation F= (p/v)XA
    By all means, if you had a bigger build or bigger mass, naturally (in theory), you would produce a stronger tone as compared to a smaller person where he/she have to work harder eg she or he can either increase the accleration of the finger storke or increase body mass(get fatter :lol: ).

    Or think this, with FF playing, you need a balnce between weight(natural fall)-massXaccleartion.
    But with reduced accleartion to zero, but a constant linear velocity, you will get a softer tone.


    Does this make sense now Chris??
     
  7. Cydonia

    Cydonia New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    The problem with trying to explain how to use forearm/arm weight in piano playing without actually being there with the learner is that it's prone to all kinds of misinterpretation.

    Using the wrong set of muscles or too much weight in piano playing can be as disastrous as not using enough weight. Injuries, pain while practicing or playing, lack of precision, etc. Therefore, a beginner can not be sure to apply the right concepts in different types of passages and approaches playing on the keyboard without guidance.

    Stephen, you seem to ask a lot of different questions about how to play : use of pedal in one thread, then tricks for a certain Chopin piece in another and now use of arm weight. That's why I strongly suggest you get a teacher to at least learn these basics concepts with someone who can tell you're doing them right or wrong. Otherwise, buy a book like the ones written by G. Sandor or even Paul Loyonnet.

    I can't overemphasize the fact that if you learn to play the wrong way, not only you'll have to start again from scratch but you'll first have to undo all the faulty patterns you will have acquired thinking they were fine.

    The basic principle of the forearm/arm weight is to use your fingers as pivots on which the weight in your arms up to your shoulders (and sometimes even more for fff passages) is resting, instead of only playing using the strength in the fingers. This principle also helps the player to always keep a firm touch with the "bottom of the keyboard" and thus improve playing precision.

    Remember that this is only a principle, not a complete means in itself to play in a single perfect way. A true pianist must be able to play only from the fingers, but also only using the forearm/arm weight principle, and then also combining both, no to mention several other other techniques depending on the particular passage needed. For example, very fast staccato octaves using both hands involve a completely different approach than legatissimo at ppp. A player who can't master such different approaches will sound the same in too many drastically opposed nuances.

    Remember this explanation represents about 0,001% of what you actually need to learn and test in practice. Hence why I so strongly suggest you find a teacher.
     
  8. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Food chemist / pianist
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Home Page:
    Last Name:
    Mar
    First Name:
    John
    WEBSITE:
    http://www.geocities.com/johnmarshome/
    LOCATION:
    Sydney, Australia
    [Hey, I like this part. I agree with you totally.....finger power........follwed by other parts.

    A true pianist must be able to play only from the fingers, but also only using the forearm/arm weight principle, and then also combining both, no to mention several other other techniques
     
  9. PJF

    PJF New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Last Name:
    Fournet
    First Name:
    Pierre
    The best amount of weight to use is the correct amount needed to facilitate coordination. If you use too much, strength breaks down. If you use to little you'll get a cramp in your forearm. Find the right amount of weight (which varies instant to instant during a performance.) It's not a static state. Quite the opposite, when we play, our entire plaing mechanism is in a state of flux. So, the proper weight on the thumb may be 70g but on the next finger, it may be only 20g, the pinkie might need 45g. All these adjustments of weight take place almost instantaneously during performance.

    As with the 10/1, the thumb carries about 40g the second finger carries about 60g, the fourth finger carries much less weight, 25g the pinkie carries the same weight as the index finger 40g. That formula works for my biomechanics and the properties of my piano.

    Pete
     
  10. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    LOCATION:
    Netherlands
    No idea. I am totally disinterested in this kind of scientific approach to music making. I just happened to notice that your formula was wrong....
     
  11. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Food chemist / pianist
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Home Page:
    Last Name:
    Mar
    First Name:
    John
    WEBSITE:
    http://www.geocities.com/johnmarshome/
    LOCATION:
    Sydney, Australia
    yes , i know what you mean. These formulas are the basic laws of physic...derivated from NEWTON not myself. F=ma and a=velocity/time. Accleration= Its the rate of changing velocity(direction) in a given time.
    By all means, play the piano with what you feel is best to PRODUCE that tone.

    Unfortunately, we all born on this planet, and you can not beat the law of physics. Everything we do are involved with these basic laws.

    Unless you are on the moon where the gravity is much lighter..
     
  12. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,388
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Obamanation, unfortunately...
    Last Name:
    Grocholski
    First Name:
    Julius
    LOCATION:
    Obamanation, unfortunately...
    A little off topic are we? :wink:



    All I know about applying weight is that you must relax yourself. Let there be a natural weight falling onto your fingers. If you try to push down with your shoulders you will only limit your fingers.


    That's all i know. :x
     
  13. johnmar78

    johnmar78 New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Food chemist / pianist
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Home Page:
    Last Name:
    Mar
    First Name:
    John
    WEBSITE:
    http://www.geocities.com/johnmarshome/
    LOCATION:
    Sydney, Australia
    Yes, Juffa, natural weight playing has its limitations....we are all humans not alliens :lol:
     
  14. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    LOCATION:
    Netherlands
    Ouch... doesn't that hurt ? :p
     
  15. juufa72

    juufa72 New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,388
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Obamanation, unfortunately...
    Last Name:
    Grocholski
    First Name:
    Julius
    LOCATION:
    Obamanation, unfortunately...
    I don't understand? Are you making fun of american-english verb usage? I meant that the weight of your fingers/hands/arms should be enough not having to rely on a your shoulders.
     
  16. PJF

    PJF New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Last Name:
    Fournet
    First Name:
    Pierre
    I think, perhaps we should be considering not weight but potential and kinetic energy. A played finger loaded with a weight behind it has very little potential (and therefore very little kinetic) energy. A finger that is intelligently and strategically placed (so as to create the maximum potential energy) in the instant before keystroke would be a better technique than just crushing your fingers into the keybed, with the weight of your arm. After a key is played, the only weight required is either that to hold that key down so its tone is continued or to provide a pivot point for other parts of the playing mechanism. The correct load(s) is/are to be determined by the individual and his instrument. More is not always better.

    I believe it was Anton Rubinstein (and correct me if I'm wrong) who told a young Josef Hoffman, "Play it with your nose, but play it well!"

    In other words, he didn't really care what one did to make the sound, just as long as it sounded good.

    KISS

    Pete
     
  17. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    LOCATION:
    Netherlands
    Yes of course. I am known to do that :lol:
     
  18. MindenBlues

    MindenBlues New Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Germany
    Home Page:
    Last Name:
    Schmidt
    First Name:
    Olaf
    WEBSITE:
    http://www.family-schmidt-minden.de
    LOCATION:
    Germany
    Yes, it's better to avoid letting weights falling onto the fingers, like the keyflap or so :lol:

    Regarding support of body weight beside the fingers - I have seen a video of Arthur Rubinstein, where he not only used the support of the shoulders, but the whole body. He literally jumped off the chair for very strong chord playing.

    I agree with Pete, as long as it sounds good, it is all ok.
    And I also agree with John, that for soft legato playing there is a very relaxed body, shoulders, arms, fingers required. Also to feel the gravity force of the fingers weight in order to produce soft and evenly sound.
     
  19. techneut

    techneut Active Member Piano Society Artist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Last Name:
    Breemer
    First Name:
    Chris
    LOCATION:
    Netherlands
    [OT] Did you see that video clip of Igudesman and Joo where this happens ? I thought that was rather funny.[/OT]
     
  20. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    I agree with cydonia,
    unlearning bad technique is very difficult. I'd almost rather my students not practice at all than practice the wrong way. It's hard to "undo."
    Less tension in your hand is what it comes down to.
     

Share This Page