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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:41 pm 
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[quote="Terez"]Chopin's 25/1 and 25/12 Etudes are also great for building strength (or force [i]through[/i] coordination!) in both hands.

The 10/1 Etude is really only good for the right hand.[/quote]

this is the law of physics force =mass X accleration. We can not denied that.

Mass is the main factor-weight of arm and body.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:23 am 
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And really, the 25/1 and the 25/12 Etudes are great to use in conjunction to build strength in the hands and arms, because the 25/1 calls for delicacy, while the 25/12 calls for ferocity, mostly. They work different muscles, I think. Both of them will leave your arms and hands aching at anything close to performance tempo unless you're really in shape - in other words, either is a really good measure of exactly how strong your hands and arms are.

Likewise, the 10/1 and the 10/12 are good to practice in conjunction with each other - one builds the right hand, and the other builds the left.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:06 am 
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Terez wrote:
And really, the 25/1 and the 25/12 Etudes are great to use in conjunction to build strength in the hands and arms, because the 25/1 calls for delicacy, while the 25/12 calls for ferocity, mostly. They work different muscles, I think. Both of them will leave your arms and hands aching at anything close to performance tempo unless you're really in shape - in other words, either is a really good measure of exactly how strong your hands and arms are.


I am wondering a bit whether really strength in the hands and arms is needed to play those etudes 25/12, and especially 25/1 in performance tempo. At least for 25/1 I think absolutely relaxed and tension free hands and wrists (for the rotary wrist movements the arppegios in both hands demand) is needed, and the task is to maintain this relaxed stadium also at faster speeds. Strength is something what is more needed to louder pieces, but 25/1 is normally treated as a soft but fast played piece.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:37 pm 
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Quote:

I am wondering a bit whether really strength in the hands and arms is needed to play those etudes 25/12, and especially 25/1 in performance tempo. At least for 25/1 I think absolutely relaxed and tension free hands and wrists (for the rotary wrist movements the arppegios in both hands demand) is needed, and the task is to maintain this relaxed stadium also at faster speeds. Strength is something what is more needed to louder pieces, but 25/1 is normally treated as a soft but fast played piece.

As I said, the 25/1 is played delicately, but the constant fast motion of the fingers, not to mention the rolling motion required of your hands, the pivoting of your wrists, the constant accent required of your right 5th finger, is very taxing on your muscles unless you are in shape. I played the 25/1 for a competition in high school, and even when the competition came, I was still aching after playing it at performance tempo, from cramps in my hands to aching forearms. But I never practiced for hours a day like I should have - usually an average of two hours at most - so I wasn't really in shape for it.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:45 pm 
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Terez wrote:
As I said, the 25/1 is played delicately, but the constant fast motion of the fingers, not to mention the rolling motion required of your hands, the pivoting of your wrists, the constant accent required of your right 5th finger, is very taxing on your muscles unless you are in shape. I played the 25/1 for a competition in high school, and even when the competition came, I was still aching after playing it at performance tempo, from cramps in my hands to aching forearms. But I never practiced for hours a day like I should have - usually an average of two hours at most - so I wasn't really in shape for it.


I played (and posted) the piece too. Can also not imagine that playing it very often in a row is useful - cramps it what should be avoided ultimately, I think. Not only that it is no good for the technique, with cramps one never can play soft and lyrical. But force will not help, strength - I dunno. Maybe endurance?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:13 pm 
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[quote="Terez"][quote]

but the constant fast motion of the fingers, not to mention the rolling motion required of your hands, the pivoting of your wrists, the constant accent required of your right 5th finger, is very taxing on your muscles unless you are in shape. I played the 25/1 for a competition in high school, and even when the competition came, I was still aching after playing it at performance tempo, from cramps in my hands to aching forearms. But I never practiced for hours a day like I should have -

Thanks for sharing your experience. According to your "rolling action " and Olafs rotation of hands thats where the "gravity" playing is most applied.or noticed.---I hope all of us can see that who is a bit confused about gravity playing.

The hand aching was the "wrong approach", it never happened or occured to me any any time but not as far as you do at least. It seems to me that, you played a little too fast than your actual physical conditions. These cramps or aching are the results of too much tension build ups and perhaps no one actually pointed out to you at your playing....

Have a nice day.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:54 am 
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Quote:
I played (and posted) the piece too. Can also not imagine that playing it very often in a row is useful - cramps it what should be avoided ultimately, I think. Not only that it is no good for the technique, with cramps one never can play soft and lyrical. But force will not help, strength - I dunno. Maybe endurance?

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I wasn't trying to suggest force, as you seem to interpret it, as an approach to playing the 25/1 in any way, only that force can best be achieved through coordination, and that of course it helps to have strength, and that the 25/1 and the 25/12 are good etudes for building strength. And yes, endurance is a good word, but the definition of endurance in this case is intrinsically linked to strength. I think that you guys are translating the word "strength" into some idea of forceful playing that I did not in any way mean to imply.
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It seems to me that, you played a little too fast than your actual physical conditions.

That was precisely the point, though - the Etude, at that time, served as a judge of the strength in my fingers and forearms. I didn't practice enough to build the strength necessary to play it without fatigue. Which brings me back to the first post made in this thread. If you are used to playing on lightweight keys, it simply follows that you will have to build the strength in your fingers and arms back up again with a switch to weighted keys. Anything that employs a constant workout of your fingers/wrists/forearms will be beneficial, whether the exercise is delicate playing or ferocious playing. The various techniques that can be employed to avoid fatigue are pertinent, of course, but they don't negate the benefit of general strength-building exercises.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:12 pm 
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[quote by terez
I didn't practice enough to build the strength necessary to play it without fatigue. Which brings me back to the first post made in this thread. If you are used to playing on lightweight keys, it simply follows that you will have to build the strength in your fingers and arms back up again with a switch to weighted keys. Anything that employs a constant workout of your fingers/wrists/forearms will be beneficial, whether the exercise is delicate playing or ferocious playing. The various techniques that can be employed to avoid fatigue are pertinent, of course, but they don't negate the benefit of general strength-building exercises.[/quote]


Thanks for your honesty. Now you have backed me up of my ideas of "adding weights to keys(38g) " as suppose to stregth training for the last 12 years. (I know Olaf does not like my idea)And 2 weeks ago I removed 14 gs. Just want to see the difference.... Well, perhaps I get use to it...it seems not much effect at all but a little more feel on keys as compared to before. a little more speed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:09 am 
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I can understand a reluctance to add weight to keys. When I play on lightweight keys, I feel out of control, and though I can pull off some fast passages with less effort, I have more of a tendency to make mistakes. But just the right amount of weight to build more strength and flexibility in the fingers without creating a vast difference in feel as compared to a normal piano keyboard - I can't imagine that it wouldn't be helpful.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:22 am 
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Another really good etude for strength and flexibility in the left hand is the 25/6 etude. I've never worked this one up for anything serious, but I did manage to work it up to perhaps an acceptable performance tempo in my spare time, once. I found it a lot easier to play many, many things after working on that etude.

Hmm, I just noticed there's no recording of it. I might work on that one, too. :)

Edit - just saw that there was a complete set of Etudes at the bottom of the Etude page. :shock: I might do it anyway. :)

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:12 am 
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I do not see how Op.25 6 is really good exercise for strength on left hands.....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:50 pm 
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Lately, I have discovered the art of playing without using excessive strength or "none "to produce a tone. No enoroumous physical amout of muscle power is required, this can be acheived in different approach as pointed out by the masters. The "only "muscle required is a light movement of finger stroke....trust me. no effort is required. Even on choipns octave study..... :)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:57 pm 
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hunwoo wrote:
I do not see how Op.25 6 is really good exercise for strength on left hands.....

lol....I never saw this again, but I meant the right hand. :lol: I caught my own mistake in re-reading this page before I got to your post. :lol:

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:30 am 
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Terez, does not matter which hands. It can be done with out effort. I already did on my kids.It works...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:24 pm 
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chopin's etude op.25 no.10 is great for training the stamina of both the left and right hand

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Carrying on to work on Schubert Impromptus op.9 nos.1,3&4 after competition. Going to learn no.2 to complete the set. Carrying on with Czerny op.299 from Bk 2 & working on a couple of Bach P+F's


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