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 Post subject: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Things are slow, and I happen to have this one, so I'll submit it for review. (This is the one that had one more page than I originally believed, due to a problem with the IMSLP scan.)
I used the default reverb settings in the new Audacity. I hope they're ok.

Piano is 5'10" petroff, lid up (all the way, I think). Zoom H2 recorder. To my ear, the piano's upper register is still in tune. (Usable, anyway.) Anyone think elsewise?[

Tchaikovsky - 18 Pieces Op. 72 - 13: Echo Rustique (2:37)

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Solidly played if a little monotone. The sudden and randomly timed pauses at 1:17 and 1:50 stood out in a negative sense. Are these cuts ? If so you should take care they preserve the rhythm. Overall I find this rather too dry and detached. I am quite fond of this piece but I believe it needs more romantic ardor. The tutti sections could (should?) be more full-blooded and sonorous.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:13 pm 
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Chris said
Quote:
The sudden and randomly timed pauses at 1:17 and 1:50 stood out in a negative sense. Are these cuts ? If so you should take care they preserve the rhythm.


The first is a cut and the second not. In both cases, the composer indicates a pause with the "//" marking. So I don't really want to preserve the rhythm.
However, you're right about the first cut being bizarre. (It's covering up for a page turn which I did not want on the recording.) So I've recut it from the original. While I was at it, I shortened the pause at the old 1:50 because I think you're right in it being too long.

I also toned down the reverb a little which might help.

I don't know how to replace the file, so I'm reuploading it with this reply. Is this how it's done??

Tchaikovsky - 18 Pieces Op. 72 - 13: Echo Rustique (2:37)

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Stu, you being an American I guess you chose the Schirmer edition over the authoritative Jurgenson. Not only added Schirmer this silly // to confound you, but they also scrapped the last page (or maybe that was the uploader's mistake :)
There are no such empathic pauses in this piece, and there is nowhere a reason to take a long break, at most a tiny luftpause (which is I what think
the Schirmer editor meant to indicate with his //).
Somehow your second version sounds exactly the same in this respect. Are you sure you uploaded the new one ?
Note that you could edit your original post, delete the attachment, and attach a new version. That's how it is done.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Oops, I see it is a new version, different file size. I'll have to make sure to clean my cache and download it again. Yes a little reverb may help.
If you still have a pause at 1:50 I will still moan about it though ! Sorry to be critical, I know these pieces too well.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:40 pm 
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I don't know this one, but it sounds like you play it nice and perky. Regarding the reverb, the second version is too dry. The first version is much better. Maybe you can add some reverb back into the second version?

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Not sure if the second version is drier than the first. I think it's mainly the clipped playing that makes it sound dry.
Now I still hear, and still don't understand, these weird long pauses at 1:17 and 1:52. What may be the justification for them ?

Also, the Name in the ID3 tag should read

Tchaikovsky - 18 Pieces Op.72 - 13: Echo Rustique

(and no 's' at the end). I know, it's nitpicking.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Monica, I happen to have my work history on this recording, so I can bump the reverb up a little and repost (since it looks like I'll have to repost anyway to please Chris). I have the version of this without the reverb. I'll probably try to shorten the pauses some more and then juice the reverb.

Chris, I shortened the pauses. You already know the justification, which is that the edition that I'm using has the pauses written in. I can shorten them more, but that's scary (with the primitive tools that I have) and will take a little time. Re-recording cannot be done, because the high registers on my piano have already gone out too much since their last tuning.

Since I've already got two versions of this attached, I'll attach the third when it's ready (in contrast to replacing the others). Might be a couple of days.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Surprisingly and happily, Audacity now saves your last reverb setting, so "juicing" it was easy. This one's still a little below the original.
I cut more out of the pauses. To my ear, they're no longer pauses at all.
The tag is fixed.
Tchaikovsky - 18 Pieces Op. 72 - 13: Echo Rustique (2:37)

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:04 pm 
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StuKautsch wrote:
(since it looks like I'll have to repost anyway to please Chris).

Hm, not to want to have the last word... but it does not please me when people change their recording just to please me. I'd rather that you would hear for yourself, whilst tapping along with the 4-square beat (tapping along is a GREAT tool, way better than a metronome), that you are still inserting half a bar of rest in these places, where no rest at all is indicated, not even in the Schirmer edition, but certainly not in the original Jurgenson. It worries me that you don't hear that (it's true, I worry a lot). Tchaikovsky is a fiercely rhythmical composer, not given to irregular meters or sudden pauses. Listen to any recording of this piece to find that it ticks away like a clockwork. Some 3/4 bars inserted in the 2/4 flow do not change this at all. But ok, I will stop moaning about it if this is your final offer !

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:14 am 
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Chris,
The second complete score offered by IMSLP for this suite, which is "New York: G. Schirmer, 1893" (which is ID's as "180661"), very clearly has the pause marked in those two places. It looks legit - that is, it does not look like something added by hand on top of the score. There are a few handwritten marks on the table of contents pages and they look freehand.

The URL for the PDF for this is http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/e/ed/IMSLP180661-SIBLEY1802.19096.9f82-39087012632479score.pdf, and the marks are on pages 123 and 124.

I'm not a scholar, and I'm not claiming that this edition is the last word. I'm only saying that I was following directions in a score from a source that we all use - namely, IMSLP. Probably I'll use another edition now that I see how untrustworthy this one is. But how will I know if that edition is any good?? Maybe they all have problems. At some point, I have to actually sit down and practice something!

Anyway, the pauses are down to the point where they're just "a breath", and I do not find them objectionable.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:07 am 
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True. It's just that in the past here we've seen Schirmer editions that were a big iffy. In this case there does not seem much difference except for these signs which I'm not sure what they mean officially. I can't think they are an instruction to take a complete half bar of rest. I seem to be the only one objecting to them (not much commenting going lately anyway) so let's leave it and put this down to interpretative freedom.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:09 pm 
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I like the reverb and personally would have applied a little more. But this is fine. A snappy piece like this probably shouldn't have too much reverb anyway.
Also, Stu, I just looked on Hawley's site and see this piece is there, but it doesn't say who the editor is. It's in Russian, though.. Maybe it's the same as one of the editions on IMSLP, I dunno....

Chris, did you already upload this?

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:22 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Chris, did you already upload this?

No, but I will do.

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 Post subject: Re: Tchaikovsky, "Echo Rustique", opus 72 number 13
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:31 am 
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Monica, the Russian edition on IMSLP is Muzyka (which I guess is a publisher), date 1977 but it looks ancient. I had to download it to get the fifth page (the one that is inexplicably missing from the Schirmer on IMSLP) but did not try to read the first four pages because the typesetting is foreign. (Whereas my american eyes are used to Schirmer's typesetting.) I did not try the complete set of 18 in Peters or Jurgensen, although I've always enjoyed Peters.

I do not know the "Hawley" site. Is this Michael Hawley? What's the URL? - when I search on Michael Hawley I get a couple sites by him but nothing with downloadable sheet music. I did get to read the interesting opinion piece he had in the NYTimes a few years back about the propriety of things like IMSLP in an age when most sheet music is simply unavailable.

Completely off-topic: I volunteer to help with the twice-annual book sales at our local library and thus get an advance peek at what's available. For some reason, there's a lot of sheet music this time, so I'll have to get more details. I already saw a piece by Joachim Raff in there ... (I know there are retired members of the NYSO living in our town. I hope none of them died recently, but that would explain a sudden influx of sheet music.)

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