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 Post subject: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Location: Brazil
Hi, everybody!

I've studied baroque practice lately, and since I got a new piano, I thought it would be a good idea to remake some of my Bach.
So here it is a little Sinfonia to be evaluated.
And just for fun... I've attached a Chopin etude I'm still working on =D

Regards,

Luís Sarro

Bach - BWV 797 - Sinfonia No. 11 in G Major (2:06)


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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:43 am 
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This is the original recording.
The other one above was "normalized" because I thought the volume was too low. But now I think the original volume is much better. This should replace the previous one above.


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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:01 am 
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I'm afraid I don't get your accordion-like expansion and contraction of the meter/tempo, but I do like what you do with the ornaments. But since the flow is more important to me than the dressing, this doesn't satisfy. This sinfonia provides some opportunity for expert voicing of suspensions. Personally I would like to hear another version.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:35 am 
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Hi, musical-md!

I'm glad you pointed that.
In fact, I have studied historically oriented performance of baroque music lately. What you call "expansion and contraction" of tempo, in fact are tenutos for "good" notes and inegalité. These are described in several old music treatises, such as those of Couperin and Quantz (I don't know if CPE Bach talks about them in his essay, because I haven't read it completely).

I have read the Badura-Skoda book on Bach keyboard performance, and I have studied it with two teachers in college. In this second semester, I'll have classes with Judy Tarling (she's coming to Brazil in September!).

Unfortunately, pianists don't care about playing baroque music in an authentic way. After studying Badura-Skoda's book, I discovered that not even Tureck, Gould, Schiff of Perahia are true to how this music was conceived. Though harpsichordists ALWAYS play with much rubato! Baroque music has much more rubato than the romantic one, though these two are very different: in baroque, you only hold the "good" notes. In romantic music, you can hold the "bad" (weak) ones.

The only two pianists who play in a historically oriented way on the piano are Badura Skoda and Wolfgang Rubsam (he's famous for being an organist).

This is the Badura-Skoda book I have read:
http://www.amazon.com/Interpreting-Bach ... skoda+bach

It's not only about good notes and inégalité, but also about ornaments and articulation. Articulation is the most difficult of all, in my opinion, since Bach didn't write any on his keyboard music.. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:41 am 
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I couldn't find any sinfonia played by Gustav Leonhardt on YouTube, but this transcription of the chacona can serve as an example (I'm studying Brahms transcription for future recordings):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXRIr78A5xg

On a chacona, the 2nd beat must be held (just like on a sarabanda).


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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:24 am 
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That sounded very nice to me, Luis! I'm not a huge Bach fan, but it's because many of the recordings I listen to all sound the same - banging along with no variation in dynamics, pedal, tempo, rubato, etc and all I hear are thousands of notes that blur together and it just gets boring after about a minute. But this 'historically correct' way of playing is so much better. I know you've studied this subject intensely and we here at PS need to respect that. Thank you for teaching me by sending me those recordings :wink: ; I almost like Bach now! :lol:

One question - have you had your new piano tuned yet? I'm not sure if it's settled in yet, some notes sounded a little off.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:30 am 
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pianolady wrote:
One question - have you had your new piano tuned yet? I'm not sure if it's settled in yet, some notes sounded a little off.

Who sold me this piano was my piano tuner. I have a free tuning scheduled after 6 months of usage. That's because any tuning right now wouldn't last, since the piano takes time to get accostumed to the new environment. :roll:

Is it too bad? If it's too bad, I'll have to re-record it after 5 months. :D

But if you let me say something... Bach's music was not written for our equally tempered tuning. Not even Beethoven's music was. :D
Okay... but I know beans about non-equal temperaments... I don't know if my out-of-tune piano is good or bad for this music. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:44 am 
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No, it's not bad. Just a little off here and there. But my own piano sounds weird to me and I just had it tuned a month ago (a new tuner).

I don't think you added any reverb though, right? I think a little would be nice - it sounds pretty dry as it is now, but maybe that's how you like it...?

I'll let Riley process the recording and then I'll put it on the main site afterwards.

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my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:55 am 
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I didn't add any reverb (but wait... you're getting my second submission, not my first one, right?)
I'd like some tips on this. What kind of reprocessing does Riley do? I'd like to know it, then I myself could do this in my future recordings. =D

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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Yes, I listened to the second file. Regarding reverb...you have to try out a lot of different settings in order to learn what you prefer. It's a little tricky...you want some but not so much that the piano sounds weird.

Riley doesn't do anything that changes the sound. He just checks the tags and file name, uploads the file onto the server, and then replaces your attachment with a link.

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"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Oh, I see.

The problem is that my ear is not good for checking audio quality... for example, I wasn't finding the sound dry. And if I start adding reverb, I'll do much more than the necessary, for sure. :oops:

But I'd like to use a plug-in such as a "soudn booster", somthing that makes the piano sound less thin.

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Felipe Sarro


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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Location: Carbondale, IL
Hi Luis,

I had a listen to your Bach, it sounded good, if slightly more dry than the Szames recording that is already on the site. The "accordion type" phrasing is appealing to me personally. All the better if it is historically informed :)

I have replaced your upload with a link. Check to see that it plays ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:52 pm 
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pianoman342 wrote:
The "accordion type" phrasing is appealing to me personally. All the better if it is historically informed :)

Me too! I decided to study historically informed baroque practices because I this rubato is very appealing to me too!

Thanks, Riley!
I can't check the link now because I'm travelling and now I'm here:
Image
8)
But I'll check when I get home, next week.


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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Hello Luis,

Interesting effect this one, though I must say I was wondering why all the suspensions, if that is how they are called.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach - remake o Sinfonia no. 11
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:29 pm 
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hi, Richard!

thanks for listening.
I didnt clearly understand what you mean... the suspensions are there. Inegalite (unevennes) and ornaments dont alter them.

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