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 Post subject: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:22 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:34 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Bristol, UK
Hi, sorry I've not been around the forums lately, no excuses really.
I made this recording recently and I noticed that the site doesn't have it.
It's a really short and sweet little sonata.The opening adagio is particularly lovely.
As usual my lack of technique really shows me up in the allegro, but it's very short and I kind of muddle through it.

Mozart - Sonata k282 - 1:Adagio (3:28)
Mozart - Sonata k282 - 2:Menuetto (3:30)
Mozart - Sonata k282 - 3:Allegro (1:43)

(edit by Robert, links didn't work)


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:33 am 
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Posts: 92
Location: Atlanta, GA
Hello - Thanks for uploading this very nice sonata. I apologize I don't have too much time at the moment, but took a listen and made a few notes for you. Overall I enjoyed it very much!

The only main criticism I would give is that it was hard for me to hear the alternating 'p' and 'f' dynamics throughout, although I agree in this piece it should perhaps be a bit subtle. But a lot of times I couldn't hear the changes at all and found myself missing them a bit. I would have personally liked to hear a bit more difference in dynamics per the markings throughout. But I still really enjoyed it nevertheless!

Adagio - I like the balance between your hands - clear melody with a mostly a very delicate touch. I felt you could have been a bit more expressive throughout, especially towards the beginning of the movement. But there were some nice moments. I especially liked your attention to the endings of many phrases.

Minuetto - May have heard a few very minor smudges, but overall very nice!

Allegro - Very clean playing, if perhaps a little slower than I usually hear it. Any reason why you don't "arpeggiate" the four chords (with half-notes atop) in the back half of the movement? Maybe this is a difference in editions?

Lastly, I thought the audio quality was good. Did you mic an acoustic piano for this?

Take care.

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Matthew Wyman
And today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Very nice overall, and the Allegro doesn't sound as though it needs much more work to eliminate most of the slight fumbles.

Adagio

The trill at the end of bar 3, and in particular its Nachschlag, is stretching the bar so much that the beginning of bar 4 comes significantly late.
You seem to start this trill on the upper note. That's usually a good policy, but here that is the same note as the one we've just had, so I would avoid its repetition by beginning this trill on the main note instead.

If you are starting the trill in bar 5 on the upper note, avoiding repetition of the Eb, it seems odd that you don't likewise avoid repetition of the F in bar 6.

Does your edition have pauses (fermatas) in bar 8? Mine has nothing, not even a rit. I think the basic notes already have enough of a slow-down built in, so that no additional slow-up is necessary, and I would play this bar in straight tempo. Same thing applies to bar 26.

In bar 14 the trill is also causing a delay, a bit like bar 3.

By the end of bar 15 you must have lost tempo, because in bar 16 there seems to be a distinct gear change. Or maybe you are just playing the first figure in bar 16 (dotted semiquaver plus demi) too quickly. This pattern should occupy the same space of time as the last four demis of bar 15.

In bar 21 you are holding the second beat (Bb crotchet) only for half its proper value, so the next note (B natural) comes a quaver too early.

The beginning of bar 34 is much too fast. This dotted quaver plus semi should take twice as long as the dotted semi plus demi we had in bar 16. Think six of the demi pulses from the end of bar 33 for the Bb here, and two for the C.

Menuets

I like the way you don't make gaps at the repeats or where you continue from the end of Men I to the beginning of Men II. I miss the da capo, though; normally, having played Men II, you would play Men I again (probably without repeats), but I guess you omitted the DC for the same reason as the exposition repeats in the other two movements.

I'm not convinced by the oompah-band feeling you create by giving the upbeat figures in bars 0 and 2 more emphasis than the downbeats which follow them.

My edition has the dotted patterns in bars 10 and 11 (and 28 and 29) slurred, just like they are in bars 0, 2, 4, 18, 20, 22, 30, 31. But you detach them, I'm not sure why. I do have them marked detached in bar 17, but I think the context is different here and justifies it.

I like the contrasting flow of the two menuets. Even though the tempi are equal, the first has a feel of 3 in a bar, while the second takes a broader view and lilts along with a feeling of being in 1.

In my edition, looking at bars 41 to 44, I have the first two RH crotchets in each bar contrasted bar-about, namely staccato in 41 and 43, but slurred in 42 and 44. You play them all slurred. I also have dynamic contrasts in my edition, with p marked on the semiquaver groups in bars 40, 42 (and 44), and f marked on those in 41 and 43. You seem to play this section at a more or less flat level. I did notice some dynamics you made which I don't even have in my edition, specifically the LH octaves in 37 38 are louder than the surrounding material.

Notice how bar 47 begins with a figure consisting of a pair of demisemiquavers grouped with a dotted quaver, which you play exactly as printed, i.e. with the first of the demis on the beat. What comes next, in bars 49-52, is similar even though here the two demis are combined into a semi, i.e. it's printed (in my ed) as a Scotch snap, dotted quaver after a semiquaver, and so the semiquavers should come on the beat, but you play them before the beat, as acciacaturas. Frankly, even if my edition had them printed as grace notes to crotchets, I'd still play them as appogiaturas.

Allegro

This skips along at a reasonably healthy speed, but I don't understand why you begin so tentatively, and then accelerate during bar 1 to reach normal tempo by the time you get to bar 2. It's almost as though you wake up and suddenly see what time it is, and get the "shit, I'm going to be late for work" feeling, and burst into your morning routine with unaccustomed frenzy. Comical though the effect is, it seems like a bit of a gimmick. Mozart doesn't need gimmicks.

In bar 8 (and correspondingly in bar 69), I have the first two RH quavers slurred, even though the previous two quavers at the end of bar 7 (68) are staccato.

Notice how in bars 40, 41, 44, and 45, the RH has a dotted crotchet plus quaver pattern. You play these as printed, with long dotted crotchets. But in bars 48 to 55, where the LH has the corresponding pattern, you play the dotted crotchets staccato. I think they should be long too.

Sorry this has grown to be a bit long again, especially as most of my remarks are down to what are probably mere editorial points.


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Posts: 65
Location: Bristol, UK
mwyman1
I'm glad you enjoyed it
Quote:
The only main criticism I would give is that it was hard for me to hear the alternating 'p' and 'f' dynamics throughout

I'm not sure if this is me or the piano (it was the cheepest they had).I know that a bad workman blames his tools and all that, but the piano does have a decided on off switch feel to it compared to the acoustics that I've played.It's as though the pp and ff parts of the spectrum aren't there.Even p and f aren't that far apart.
Quote:
Any reason why you don't "arpeggiate" the four chords (with half-notes atop) in the back half of the movement? Maybe this is a difference in editions?

No just personal preference I suppose, my edition has them.I do feel guilty every time I play them that way though if that helps.:-)
Quote:
Lastly, I thought the audio quality was good. Did you mic an acoustic piano for this?

It's a digital piano passed through an audio interface which adds some effects.

rainer
Wow, lots of great analysis here and all very valid, thanks.This must be what it's like to have a good teacher.
Quote:
Does your edition have pauses (fermatas) in bar 8? Mine has nothing, not even a rit.

No, nothing.This is something I wouldn't want to change though.I love the slight pause here.

I might have another go at the adagio to put right the timing errors.I usually check pieces against a metronome when they're getting towards finished.I guess the simplicity made me overconfident with this one.
Yes, the start of the allegro was unplanned, I'm so rubbish that it took me loads of attempts to get a half decent recording.None of the others started with this hesitation.


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:36 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:
Yes, the start of the allegro was unplanned, I'm so rubbish that it took me loads of attempts to get a half decent recording.None of the others started with this hesitation.
Indeed they didn't, but you should be able to fix this one. I have an idea how:

Pretend that the first two bars are repeated, so that you play up to but excluding the Ab in bar 2, before going back to the opening Bb upbeat.

You may even play it like this once or twice, allowing yourself to begin as slowly as you did and ramping up your speed during bar 1. But of course by the time you repeat, you will already be up to speed. Then, next time, don't actually play the first time through these repeated bars, but only imagine them being played (by you or by someone else, your guardian angel perhaps). Even imagine this angel starting slowly and speeding up. Then, when the imaginary player takes the repeat, you can simply join in, or take over. By this time the speeding up has already happened (in your head only, but that's where it counts), and so when you actually start hitting the keys, you can do so in time.

Worth a try.


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 92
Location: Atlanta, GA
timmyab wrote:
No just personal preference I suppose, my edition has them. I do feel guilty every time I play them that way though if that helps.
Well, I feel much better knowing that you feel guilty about it at least! :wink:

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Matthew Wyman
And today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9637
Location: Netherlands
This is one of my favorites among the early Mozart sonatas. I did not listen with score, so can't give much details - but you have a lot of those already. I think you are giving a very respectable and enjoyable performance of it. As often my main bone is with the digital sound which I find a bit anaemic (though it's not so bad here, I have heard far worse). The Minuet is a touch too fast for my taste. The Allegro could be a bit more assertive, it is a bit timid especially the passage work which could be crisper and clearer in places. Overall, there could be a bit more dynamic contrast (especially with these big
arpeggiated chords in the Allegro). All said, there's little things to improve, but this is good by any standard.

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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:19 pm 
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Not sure if you wanted to work on this a but more or not. In any case, please re-upload with correct names and ID2 tags as described in this sticky topic:
http://pianosociety.com/new/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5115&p=51530

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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Location: Bristol, UK
O.K, I'll have another go at the adagio to correct some of the errors.I'll leave the other movements as they are warts and all if you don't object.


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:40 am 
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Ok, fine. You can replace the Allegro any time you want. Don't forget to fix the names and tags first.

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Location: Bristol, UK
Here are the properly named files and the re-recorded adagio.
I'm not certain if the adagio is any improvement to be honest.

Mozart - Sonata k282 - 1:Adagio (3:28)
Mozart - Sonata k282 - 2:Menuetto (3:30)
Mozart - Sonata k282 - 3:Allegro (1:43)

(edit by Robert, links didn't work)


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
Tim,
I just had a listen to your Mozart sonata in Eb major. Overall I think you do an adequate job. The biggest "mistake" was simply forgetting to play the Menuetto I again (without repeats) after finishing the Menuetto II ("Men. I D.C."). When playing Mozart from an authoratative edition (like the G. Henle Verlag) I think it is important to observe the articulation marks carefully. My Henle edition shows a lot of attention by the composer to articulations which were by and large ignored on your part. The difficulty about Mozart, is that since he writes so purely, there is nothing to hide behind and it really requires great execution and enormous attention to detail to do it well. Others have already given you some insightful comments on interpretation, so no need for me to.

Keep it going!

Regards,
Eddy

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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Location: Bristol, UK
Thanks for that.
To be honest, I didn't realize that the De Capo repeat was compulsory.I'll do it in future, but probably miss out some of the section repeats.
Yes, good point about there being nothing to hide behind.I used to wonder why so many good pianists regarded Mozart as being particularly difficult to play.I suppose that's the reason.The slightest error or unevenness of touch is cruelly exposed.
I'm not a great one for following articulation marks as you've noticed.This is probably because I've never had a teacher rapping my knuckles.I've got a lot to learn in this respect, but I also think that pianists should have the freedom to interpret the score in any way they choose otherwise classical music can become a bit stagnant.


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 Post subject: Re: Mozart Sonata K 282
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Ok ! These are on the site now. Nice work.

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