I am desperately seeking some no-held punches criticisms of this newly finished concerto of mine. It is about 28 minutes, is in the Romantic style, but I think it has enough going for it to make a dent of some sort in the music world if performed live. Problem is, that's what I think; I could be totally all-wet. Were some good knowledgeable pianists/critics/conductors to hear it they might see it as a piece of trash. I've made several attempts to "get it out there" but so far to no avail. I need two questions answered and I'm hoping this forum will start me off:

1. Is this concerto good enough to have a premiere with a major orchestra and pianist, setting aside the cost for a moment? Could it make an impact--the kind that would get an audience to its feet at the end?

2. If it is, then how do I go about getting someone of importance to hear it. I've approached a few orchestras, conservatories, private piano teachers, teacher organizations such as MTNA--all to no avail.

Many thanks to any and all who can give me some helpful feedback as to "Yes, it is good enough" or "No, it's just not there, Joe." and if the former, "And here's how you should go about getting someone important to hear it. Warning: it is a MIDI but what you hear, I have found, will largely depend on your computer's sound card. The better sound cards will play it back acceptably. One good sign; it has garnered about 1,400+ hits since I posted it a month ago and very few of those hits are mine.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JoeTownley?feature=mhee

Hi Joe,

I'm not sure if you are an amateur composer or a 'professional' one. Either way it is very ambitious to create a Romantic piano concerto in the style of Rachmaninov. I can understand why you are not getting any response to this. To form a proper opinion about a big work, one would need to listen
repeatedly. But given the rather dismal MIDI sound I don't think anybody will do that. I actually did not listen to the whole movement either because the
sound got on my nerve. Also there wasn't anything in the music so far that stood out and made me want to hear it again. Not every piece can grab you at first listen, but it DOES help if there are some of those moments, there must be something that grabs a listener or else it will just go out the other ear and you'll never return to it.

So, most useful I could say is that you'll need to provide a clearer and far better sounding sample. It can be done, I've heard MIDI files, even orchestrated, that sounded much better than this one.

Well, this is very much my idiom of choice! The sound isn't very good (and the sudden silences at, e.g., 11.07 sound very odd), but trying to extrapolate to that of a real orchestra, I think ths could be a very worthwhile endeavour. I can't see why an audience wouldn't like this. I would suggest that some music schools/conservatories may not be interested in such music for purely dogmatic reasons, i.e. were you to approach them with something in a more modern, contemporary idiom, that would be much more acceptable to them. I don't want to generalise, but I have certainly heard of places where this would be the case. I would suggest that before you send it to someone, you do a little research on the sort of music they are associated with, and target accordingly. The other thing I would suggest is school and amateur orchestras who just may be interested in playing something new. As for the music, I certainly enjoyed it, though I think there may be a little too much saccharin to it - one CAN have too much of a good thing, even though I'm very much in accord with your harmonic sensibilities! (the minute from 26.27 - loved the chord at 27.17!) Is it just me, or is the introduction and theme in the third movement Fur Elise in thirds? One small thing: the ending seemed a bit anti-climactic; alternate chromatic octave runs are a Romantic cliche, but they do delineate an ending clearly! Good luck with this project, and I hope you do get it performed.

Hi Joe,
I just had a listen and first off, boy was I glad to see that the 28 minutes was not for just the 1st movement. Overall, I would say that you have a masterful level of writing for the basic elements of melody, harmony and rhythm for this style, and the piano writing itself seemed very idiomatic. I'm afraid I cannot comment on the orchestration because unfortunately it all just sounds like organ playing with some electronic piano involved. It would be great to follow your score, but I don't know how that could be accomplished. If you're going to write in this style and form, I would have expected some (at least one) big cadenzas. The end of your 3rd movement was perfectly written style-wise and was in the fine tradition of pianistic virtuoso concerto. Now for my concerns. The most obvious is the style: writing in such a dated romantic style is difficult because you are competing with all the great works of the masters and 2nd line composers of the 20th century. Consider that even the discovery and reconstruction of Mendelssohn's 3rd piano concerto would struggle to compete on the concert stage. Having mentioned this concerto serves as segue to the subject of getting yours performed. Basically, you have only two routes, be a famous composer or know a concert pianist who has enough stature to make it happen IF they wanted to do it. Take for instance the Mendelssohn 3rd, it was given it's North America premier in 1992 by Anton Nel, a pianist with over 100 concertos in his repertoire! Do you have a friend who is on the piano faculty at some university that also has an orchestra? If so, and you could convince that pianist and conductor to consider it, then that would likely be your best chance. I'm afraid that without fame and stature, it will depend upon net-working (maybe some right here on PS) and the quality (and style) of your writing. Most pianists interested in performing the premiere of a work, are looking for novelty so you may want to catapult yourself ahead 100 years in your style. As the Romantics were much influenced by literature of their time, maybe you should seek inspiration similarly. Wizards and vampires seem to be quite popular these days.

Good luck and best wishes.
Eddy

Gentlemen, thank you very much for your excellent opinions and advice. Let me take each reply separately:

Techneut, I am an amateur. 60 years old. No training in composition, though as is evident I do remember my harmony from Theory I-IV from back in college in the early 70's. Having a notation program of course was a Godsend so I could listen back to combinations of sounds. I was a piano student in my early years up until my BA in 1974. After that, with a hand injury, i dropped out of music and pursued other things. But as a kid I was fascinated by piano concertos and always wanted to write one. So when I retired I decided to finally do it.

I hear in spades what you are saying about the sound. Nearly every person who commented on my YouTube page (BTW, the link I provided was my homepage, so there were no comments on it) reviled the sound, rightly so, but said they liked the music otherwise. My problem is that I don't have the technical expertise to transfer the score into a better sounding program. I tried Finale but nearly lost my mind-it is just too complex to manipulate. That leaves me with another problem: where to find someone who will do it for me. I googled Finale arrangers and left messages with two commercial arrangers but they never got back to me. So I don't know how to find a qualified person to pay to do it. But I am very grateful for your opinion even if you do feel it is not a worthwhile piece of music on its own. It's what I need to hear: the good, the bad, and the ugly in order to make a decision about moving forward with this and investing some serious money in it.

Andrew

Glad to hear there are still some out there who enjoy hearing melody. I agree, it is very "sweet" in some places--I do have a tendency to get carried away and some revisions are probably in order. The piece is cyclic so subordinate theme (b) reoccurs in the middle section of the third movement; the "Fur Elise" main theme of the third is briefly hinted in the development of the first--and you were very keen to pick that up; out of roughly 1400 listens only one other, a high school kid also noticed that--I should have; the subordinate theme (a) of the first movement comes back as the big statement at the end ala Gershwin.

A brief rundown of my activity trying to get this heard: I contacted Colburn School in Los Angeles. The head explained that orchestra time is extremely limited and valuable--understandable--but he took my name and said he would see what he could do. Never heard back from him. Called Occidental College in my neck of the woods. Took my name. Never heard back. Left messages with a couple of prominent piano teachers inquiring if they had students who might want to earn some money playing a two-piano version. Never heard back. Contacted the Tucson Symphony (listen to this) inquired about hiring the orchestra for a session. Did get a call-back but when I said I was interested in a premiere, never heard back. They didn't even quote me a price. Emailed several pianist of some reputation with offers of pay to play. Never heard back from their representation. Other attempts which narration would probably bore everyone, but the point is that I realized when I started this that I knew I was going to be swimming against the tide with this style and also because of my age. I just never realized HOW unreceptive people would be, especially when money could be involved. So I'm not sure at this point how to move forward except to keep plugging away. And of course to get a better sounding arrangement.

What coincidence, so am I. Turned 60 last sunday


I did not actually mean to imply that. Just that I did not pick up any things that interested me. But I did not listen to all of it, and did not listen very intently
as I hated the sound and was doing work with the other brain half (usually, that works for me). So I'd give it the benefit of the doubt, especially as others whom I respect have positive things to say about it.

techneut, sorry I didn't mean to imply that that was what you were saying. I didn't word it properly in my haste to get a response to you and andrew. What I meant to say was that I am grateful to you for your opinion even if you feel that the music itself isn't a creation that could bowl the audience over on first hearing like the Rach Two did.

And how does it feel to be 60? If you're like me you're spending a lot more time in front of the computer, looking forward to your SS in 2 years (if the bastods in DC don't up the age before we get there) and checking out "finding a grave" on the web in your spare time and wondering why.


Eddy, thanks much for your kind words. Yes, even I would have cringed if my own first movement clocked in at 28 minutes. At the premiere I probably would have been the one to shout from the audience, "I'd give ten thousand dollars if the damn thing would just stop!" (remember the story of Brahms First?)

Yeah, the cadenza. I just didn't have the confidence to write a masterful cadenza because I can't play piano anymore. I suppose I was heavily under the influence of Rach's Second--you can notice that in part as it is the orchestra that carries all the theme work while the piano does filigree in the opening--and so figured I could get away without writing one.

I AM up against some heavy guns, it's true. My rationale in all this was: well, if I'm going to write a concerto do I go modern or Romantic? I looked around and saw that in all of the premieres the work was performed once and then never heard again in concert. Notable exceptions are the Liebermann 3rd, I believe, and...I honestly cannot think of another. So I asked myself, what do people gravitate to when they want to go to a concert? Why, romantic music, of course. It's why the Tch and Rach get played thousands of times a year while the Ernest Gold, the Benjamin, the Rorem, the Carpenter, the Bernstein, the Babbitt and hundreds of others languish. They're all well-crafted but they don't give the audience something--I don't know what that something is--and so in spite of the composer's big name, their concertos are forgotten. Go figure.

So here I come--a nobody, over the hill at 60 trying to get my concerto into the standard repertoire. Takes nuts of gold, you bet. All that's left is to throw some money around. I mean I have some but not a lot. And the big question on my mind is: could I just find a pianist with connections to an orchestra and just pay him to learn the concerto and then when he is contacted by an orchestra have him say, "Hey, I want to try out this new concerto. How about it?" Not sure how the politics of this works. When a contract is made between pianist and orchestra I assume the bigger pianists dictate what they want to play while the lesser-known are asked, "Do you know this concerto? This is the one the orchestra wants to program".

Well maybe it could, in a proper, pleasant-sounding performance. All I want to say is that in its present format, it could not bowl me over. But I will have another listen, as it seems like I've missed some of the fun.


Doesn't feel any different from 10 or even 20 years ago really. As long as you keep fit and curious, age doesn't seem to matter so much. If you have 2 years to retirement, you're very lucky. Here it's at 65 but they are talking about changing it to 66 or even 67. Still seems an awful long time away.
I have not used "find a grave" that much yet. Thanks for the tip

I'm not a fulltime concertising pianist, but I can pass on what I've been told by my teacher, who was active until recently retiring from the stage. I get the impression there are very few pianists in the world who can impose a specific concerto on a programme. For the rest, it's a matter of them being asked "Do you know the Klumpenhopfen Piano Concerto? We want to do it in October." And the pianist (or his agent) thinks "No, of course not" but says "Yes, of course" and then spends the next few weeks learning it.
I don't think this is going to be easy for you. It would be a start if you could be your own soloist; that would eliminate one hurdle. I feel that an amateur orchestra is going to be easier to persuade than a professional one, or at least less difficult. If you have any musician contacts, see what you can get from them: the first concert I ever did I got purely by dint of the organiser being the son of my first teacher (and, I suppose, some persuasion on my part). Regarding a soloist, I think you're going to have to find a way of selling the project to a sympathetic (as in, the music is to their taste) conservatory student or similar. Perhaps the work could count as them doing contemporary repertoire, even if it's not contemporary in style. Offering them the piece as an opportunity to do a world premiere might be another avenue. Bear in mind what the requirements of their course may be regarding public performance. Some colleges will have public student noticeboards; putting an advert up might be constructive. I'm sure you have thought about these things, of course. I don't think throwing money at the project is necessarily going to yield results, as it seems you have experienced, and I would certainly try to combine the prospect of financial gain with musical persuasion.

Andrew:



Gotcha. Thanks. That answers a huge question about how to approach this.



That's putting it mildly, based on my experience so far.



I wish it were possible, but it's not. Even if I could get my technique back with tons of practice there is still the matter of getting up in front of a huge crowd and the strain of pulling it off. I'm just not capable at my age and lack of experience is yet another hurdle.



Yes, that's the paradox. The worst the orchestra, the easier it will be to achieve, except for the pianist part.



I have absolutely none.



That's one possibility. A music student at a university could get it into the hands of his university's music director, though I doubt the conductor would care. As the director of Colburn told me (and he stated that this is true basically across the board), orchestra rehearsal time is so limited and auditorium time precious that virtually no university would be willing to donate the time even for a short run-through, which is what I proposed to him. No money was mentioned.



This is one of the very few avenues I have: a public notice, "Hey I will pay you X dollars to learn and perform this piece." But I have to have an orchestra waiting to do it. Also, the contact person for the Tuscon Symphony mentioned that they plan their concerts typically two years out so the earliest I could get it on a program would be 2014-2015.

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Actually, this is the only prospect I have. "Money talks. Bulls*t walks" as the saying goes. Nobody is going to do this for me purely out of altruism. The ONLY motivation they would have is money. Orchestras need it; students need it; universities need it. In this day and age, unfortunately, it's the only motivator there is. I have no doubts that if I mortgaged my home and raised 100k I could have this performed in six months. But who is crazy or egoistic enough to do something as insane as that? And for sure my wife would say, "You want to do what???? And use the money for WHAT???? Are you out of your friggin' mind??????

By the way, thank you much, Andrew for your input. Lots of good stuff in there.

From what I know, that seems eminently believable. Here, even the local university's lunchtime recital programme is set up a year in advance.



I'm sure you're right. I had a bit of a think about this. Perhaps a public performance in the conventional sense need not be the be all and end all? If, hypothetically, you were able to persuade an orchestra to do a run-through/rehearsal by paying for their time, and you had an amenable soloist, how about recording the whole procedure, film it (with more than one camera - to make continuity simpler), hopefully edit it into a coherent whole, leaving you with a virtual public performance which can then be put on Youtube? [You will probably have to get their consent re the filming.] It's not perfect, but a lot better than nothing, and ultimately you can only reach a few hundred people with a public performance, whereas your potential audience is much greater online.

I'm not sure how this is orchestrated but does it have to be a concerto with orchestra ? You could consider reworking it as a concerto for 2
pianos. Probably easier (or, less impossible) to find 2 pianists than one pianist and an orchestra. Could also be less risky than having a 3rd rate orchestra
making a mess of your orchestral part. Just an idea

Andrew:


I had considered this, but then a couple of problems emerged. First, the pay. The question in my mind: why pay a couple thousand for a third-rate performance that is only going to elicit groans on YouTube? The thing about a large premiere is that while only a few thousand people hear it, these are powerful people, not to mention the reviews which would get out to the public, good or bad. With a large performance, it either makes or breaks the Concerto. Either the concerto is a dismal failure or just ho-hum, in which case at least I end up with a first-rate performance captured on video which can then be posted on YouTube without the embarrassment of a sh*t performance and also be translated to audio CD's. Or, in a very unlikely scenario, the concerto is another MacDowell sensation.

techneut:


Interesting idea. Of course then I'm searching for two accomplished pianists instead of one. It's interesting that the job of finding a good pianist is actually proving much harder than the orchestra. I contacted a couple of well-known pianists, one of them the up-and-coming Jan Lisiecki and made an offer for money but never heard back from any of them. Apparently, pianists cannot be bought as easily as an orchestra can. Might stain their reputations to give a premiere that turns out to be a flop, I suppose. A two-piano concerto has no possible chance of success. It's unconventional, which is why there are so few out there. Also, it's just a means to an end which is to get a traditional concerto performed. Doing a two-piano version with orchestra reduced to second piano is nearly the same. Thanks for the input though. Keep those ideas coming. One just might be the winner.

I had not heard of Jan Lisiecki but seeing that he records for DG he'll be booked for years to come, recording all the staple fare.
I would still think that finding an enthusiastic and capable amateur pianist (or even two) would be easier than finding a decent orchestra. But maybe not. In any case the logistics would be easier and once there's a decent sounding recording it might be easier to get a real deal. But I guess this is the plight of any beginning composer.

The plight of a beginning, unknown composer knows no end.