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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:37 pm
Posts: 17
dctpianist wrote:
jjj wrote:
Apropos "acquisition of dexterity":
The other time, I tried to get my fingers used to running the Kbd up and down on several days. First only the white keys and then chromatically and noticed, that this somehow helped me. You see, that's the kind of guidelines I was looking for, in this forum and I am still somehow certain that a number of this type of practical guidelines do exist.


You might also know these as scales. You should work on these all the time. I try to work on scales and arpeggios daily. My first two years of playing I did not work on scales and my technique suffered because of this. I'm still trying to get rid of some bad habits I learned early on. Also, when I started working on scales daily my playing improved much more rapidly.

Even if you are determined to stay away from conventional teaching and theory, I would at least compromise and learn how basic scales and arpeggios work. Not only will this help your technique, it will probably help your playing by ear a lot as well. After all, tonal music is basically embellished/rearranged scales and arpeggios :P


Thank you dctpianist for the good advice,

At the moment I am only able to play c-maj and a min scales and chords. TAs mentioned, to play other scales I press the "transpose" button on my Tyros. Yes, learning and keep on practicing 24 scales & chords on the zebra piano Kbd is vital, albeit a pain in the proverbial! Solution: Since I consider myself a "piano Kbd beginner", I still have the chance to learn (instead unlearning + re-learning!) the Janko/ Uniform Kbd layout and Klavarskribo notation, instead. That will do away with earning the grossly irregular, traditional zebra piano Kbd layout and its equally complicated notation.
I reckon it only serves piano teachers and helps professional musicians to distance themselves from amateur pianists. Yet, the time has come that computers bridge this gap. Now the quest is for a Kbd layout and notation, which offers creative music lovers the easiest way to learn and play a musical Kbd?

Back to my Kbd playing:
I noticed that I'm automatically start getting into arpeggios during the frenzy of my daily practice. At times I get really excited and go on until my backside hurts from too long sitting. All I know that eventually this type of drive leads me to get better at what I am doing; simple as that! Since, I'm not practicing according to any guidelines, I'm getting all sorts of surprises! The Tyros' rhythm incites and forces me to comply! The Tyros itself seems to be my best teacher! Playing the Kbd is great fun and I am almost sure that if I would submit my enthusiasm to a piano teacher, it soon would die a tragic death... :(
Jeez, I'm sooo glad having gained and preserved that childlike fondness in musical creativity, which enables me to keep on enjoying it for the rest of my life! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:01 am
Posts: 26
jjj wrote:
Thank you dctpianist for the good advice,

That will do away with earning the grossly irregular, traditional zebra piano Kbd layout and its equally complicated notation.
I reckon it only serves piano teachers and helps professional musicians to distance themselves from amateur pianists. Yet, the time has come that computers bridge this gap. Now the quest is for a Kbd layout and notation, which offers creative music lovers the easiest way to learn and play a musical Kbd?

Back to my Kbd playing:
Since, I'm not practicing according to any guidelines, I'm getting all sorts of surprises! The Tyros' rhythm incites and forces me to comply! The Tyros itself seems to be my best teacher! Playing the Kbd is great fun and I am almost sure that if I would submit my enthusiasm to a piano teacher, it soon would die a tragic death... :(
Jeez, I'm sooo glad having gained and preserved that childlike fondness in musical creativity, which enables me to keep on enjoying it for the rest of my life! :wink:


To be honest, I haven't found it extremely complicated. Then again, I gobble up practically everything about classical music. You just have to be in the right mindset for it. If you convince yourself that learning conventional notation and theory and playing on a "zebra layout" is needlessly complicated, then it probably will be.

I think your view of piano teachers stereotypes them to a shameful degree, and I hope it changes. Both piano teachers that I've had have been remarkably encouraging and have given me a great deal of freedom. I bombard my current teacher with composers and music he's never heard of, and if he thinks the music has merit he gladly welcomes it. He has yet to assign me a single piece (I don't think he ever will), and if he does not approve of a piece that I bring to him it's always for very good reasons that he thoroughly explains. Additionally, I'm given all the freedom in the world to experiment with the pieces and try to bring my own musical voice into whatever I'm working on. Even though I've only been playing for about 5 years and am an absolute beginner, I come up with my own fingerings, my own phrasing and dynamics when the music allows it, etc. We discuss what I do during lessons and if he objects to anything he once again explains why very thoroughly. In fact, about the only thing he is adamantly in control of is matters of technique, which I absolutely agree with. I got "shouted at" last week for incredibly sloppy finger work which was hindering my ability to play scalar passages in a Haydn sonata, and I'm fine with that because I was floundering and he knows better than I do in that regards.

Long story short: Not all teachers are the same. Find one who matches what you want to get out of learning to play, and it will be more than worth it. Think of a teacher less as someone who expects you to do as they say, and more as someone who can help you make the most out of your unique skills and style through insight that only comes with years and years of experience that they have and you don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:54 am 
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Thanks again dctpianist for the good advice!

You see, the last year I intensively researched Janko vs zebra Kbd layout and Klavarskribo vs traditional notation.
Once you discover the advantages of the former, you'll find it hard to ignore them. Particularly then, when they are in easy reach.

Once I get into tuition with the guidance of a teacher, I'll forfeit these advantages. It's a little like deciding which accordion to learn? When I was young and had to decide on that, I was totally unaware of the existence and advantages of the C-system button accordion. Thus, I had to put up with a piano accordion. I wished the piano Kbd would have this type of chromatic layout, because then the Kbd would be much shorter and you could command a hand span of more than two octaves!
The great thing is that the Janko Kbd layout is only slightly different from the zebra Kbd and thus, easily converted and beginners (like me) will be able to adjust to it in no time. Of course I then will have to apply (my invented) Klavarskribo correction to learn the Janko Kbd layout with the help of notation. As you see, it's an adventure worth trying...
It costs me only a bit of fine wood and about 5 days to convert my Kbd to Janko/ Uniform layout. The notation for it is already done.
I then can do away with keep practicing 22 more scales and chord patterns. It will be also easier to play, for its keys are all 2cm wide. The same with the notation: I won't have to put up with "# & b" and a hard time to figure out a cluster of notes.

As you see, it's really worth it to benefit from these advantages, which of course will get me further in a shorter time. The only disadvantages mentioned was that I won't be able to play any zebra piano and read traditional notation. Since I'll be playing only my Tyros and my PC can easily convert any traditional notation to my Janko notation, it doesn't affect me.
End of problem! Yet, it was good that I did my homework to get that dilemma sorted out. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:23 am 
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Posts: 297
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Hello Johannes,

I have a question for you about scale fingerings on your Janko adapter. If I understand correctly, the notes CDE are only available on the middle row, but FGAB appear on both lower and upper rows, so you have a choice of which row to play them on.

How do you play a C major scale? From what I have seen, the recommended Janko fingering for the right hand is to play CDE with 234, and FGAB with 1231, returning to C with 2 ready to continue with the next octave, and specifically that the thumb notes F and B should be played on the lower row, and G and A on the upper row.

Are you using this fingering? Or are you using a modified version in which the G and A are also played on the lower row (still using 2 and 3)? The latter would seem to involve some digital awkwardness with the thumb having to curl under and around the 3rd finger when making the A to B transition. This is less awkward on the traditional (zebra) keyboard because the keys are longer and the 3rd finger's contact point can be significantly further forward than the thumb's. This is why it is more comfortable, on Janko, to play only the thumb notes on the lower row and other notes on the upper row. It leaves a more unobstructed space through which the thumb can travel to its destination in a straighter line.

The reason I ask is that the claim that all 12 (major) scales can be played with the same fingering pattern cannot be true unless you either add a fourth row (probably on top, duplicating the middle CDE row), or you restrict your scale playing to two rows.

Why did you decide to build only 3 rows and not 4?


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Posts: 17
Hello rainer,

Quote:
I have a question for you about scale fingerings on your Janko adapter. If I understand correctly, the notes CDE are only available on the middle row, but FGAB appear on both lower and upper rows, so you have a choice of which row to play them on.

How do you play a C major scale? From what I have seen, the recommended Janko fingering for the right hand is to play CDE with 234, and FGAB with 1231, returning to C with 2 ready to continue with the next octave, and specifically that the thumb notes F and B should be played on the lower row, and G and A on the upper row.

Are you using this fingering? Or are you using a modified version in which the G and A are also played on the lower row (still using 2 and 3)? The latter would seem to involve some digital awkwardness with the thumb having to curl under and around the 3rd finger when making the A to B transition. This is less awkward on the traditional (zebra) keyboard because the keys are longer and the 3rd finger's contact point can be significantly further forward than the thumb's. This is why it is more comfortable, on Janko, to play only the thumb notes on the lower row and other notes on the upper row. It leaves a more unobstructed space through which the thumb can travel to its destination in a straighter line.

I built this 3-row Janko/ Uniform Kbd layout a few years ago. At that time I didn't bother about fingering. I suppose your fingering suggestion is fine. I merely wanted to try this Janko/ Uniform setup out and albeit it's pretty close to the traditional, zebra piano Kbd, I had quite a lot of difficulties of get used to play it by ear "without falling into its trap"! Since I couldn't find any appropriate notation for it, I gave up trying. Yet, now that I invented my own notation for it, I'm keen on giving it another go. This time my 3-row Janko/ Uniform Kbd will be even better.

Quote:
The reason I ask is that the claim that all 12 (major) scales can be played with the same fingering pattern cannot be true unless you either add a fourth row (probably on top, duplicating the middle CDE row), or you restrict your scale playing to two rows. Why did you decide to build only 3 rows and not 4?

It's, because the Uniform Janko Kbd for an accordion uses only the essential layout; i.e. restricting playing to available rows. That still allows the same fingering patterns to be used. In my case I intend to play the melody on my Tyros like an accordion; i.e. only with right hand using the left hand for Yamaha Styles and adjustments. In addition I plan to MIDI encode a 120-button accordion bass for manual chords and thus, combining it with Yamaha Styles accompaniment.


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
jjj,

There are two separate ideas you are trying to promote here, One is the Janko-style keyboard layout, the other is Klavarskribo notation (or your Janko-friendly version of it).

While you are trying to promote both of these together, they are in reality orthogonal concepts and it is perhaps better to look at the advantages and disadvantages of each idea separately. So I would like to leave the notation aspect for later, as it is probably less important, given that you prefer to play by ear. You also don't need notation to play scales.

I find the Janko concept interesting, but it is clear that its major stated benefit of universal transposability is only true in limited circumstances. A three-row system is severely limited: If you have some sample you can already play on it (be it a scale, or a simple melody, or a whole piece), and if you need all three rows to play it, then you cannot transpose this sample into all of the other 11 possible keys without changing any of the fingering pattern, but only into those 5 other keys which differ from the original by an even number of semitones. Only if your sample is playable on just two rows, can it be transposed into all other 11 keys like that.

In other words, if you can play a C major scale, then you can also play the scales of D, E, F#, G#, A# major using the same fingering, but you can't necessarily play F, G, A, B, C# major. Whether you can depends on whether your C scale fingering confines itself to two rows.

That's why I asked how you fingered a C major scale, I wanted to see whether you played it on two rows or three. I'm surprised to find you unable to give an answer. If the whole purpose of the idea is to let you learn to play all scales by learning just one, then once you've actually gone to the trouble of building this contraption, you would surely have at least gone to the trouble of learning that one scale, and some chords, otherwise the construction project would have been without purpose. Would you consider building a fourth row?

If you want to improve your keyboard skills, one of the ways is to practise scales and chords. Try it, and tell us how you finger them on your adapter:

1) C major scale
2a) A minor scale (harmonic)
2b) A minor scale (melodic ascending)
2c) A minor scale (melodic descending) - this will presumably be the same as C major
3abc) C major triads (3-note chords) CEG, EGC, GCE
4abc) C major (4-note) chords CEGC, EGCE, GCEG
56abc) like 34abc but A minor

You can't get completely away from theory!


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Posts: 17
Hi rainer,

Quote:
There are two separate ideas you are trying to promote here, One is the Janko-style keyboard layout, the other is Klavarskribo notation (or your Janko-friendly version of it). While you are trying to promote both of these together, they are in reality orthogonal concepts and it is perhaps better to look at the advantages and disadvantages of each idea separately. So I would like to leave the notation aspect for later, as it is probably less important, given that you prefer to play by ear. You also don't need notation to play scales.
I like to think that notation will greatly help me to learn the new Janko layout, because without it was pretty frustrating, because I failed to find the right key/ note. Thus, with notation I won't be anymore tapping in the dark. Later on, once my brain got the new pattern, I'll be able to play by ear.
Quote:
I find the Janko concept interesting, but it is clear that its major stated benefit of universal transposability is only true in limited circumstances. A three-row system is severely limited: If you have some sample you can already play on it (be it a scale, or a simple melody, or a whole piece), and if you need all three rows to play it, then you cannot transpose this sample into all of the other 11 possible keys without changing any of the fingering pattern, but only into those 5 other keys which differ from the original by an even number of semitones. Only if your sample is playable on just two rows, can it be transposed into all other 11 keys like that.
In other words, if you can play a C major scale, then you can also play the scales of D, E, F#, G#, A# major using the same fingering, but you can't necessarily play F, G, A, B, C# major. Whether you can depends on whether your C scale fingering confines itself to two rows.
Why not F. G, A, B, C# major scales? The scale pattern is always the same, consisting of: 3 keys, then 4 keys up; next octave the same! Of course I'll be always starting at the bottom or middle row.
[/quote]That's why I asked how you fingered a C major scale, I wanted to see whether you played it on two rows or three. [/quote] I suppose with that 3-row Janko it all depends in which row I start the scale.
Quote:
I'm surprised to find you unable to give an answer. If the whole purpose of the idea is to let you learn to play all scales by learning just one, then once you've actually gone to the trouble of building this contraption, you would surely have at least gone to the trouble of learning that one scale, and some chords, otherwise the construction project would have been without purpose. Would you consider building a fourth row?
Sure, I could do that. Which 4th row are you referring to; a row above or under the 3 rows and what's the advantage?
Quote:
If you want to improve your keyboard skills, one of the ways is to practise scales and chords. Try it, and tell us how you finger them on your adapter:
1) C major scale
2a) A minor scale (harmonic)
2b) A minor scale (melodic ascending)
2c) A minor scale (melodic descending) - this will presumably be the same as C major
3abc) C major triads (3-note chords) CEG, EGC, GCE
4abc) C major (4-note) chords CEGC, EGCE, GCEG
56abc) like 34abc but A minor
You can't get completely away from theory!
That's why I like to apply my notation. It allows me to get convert a piano tutor and also music sheets. My quest is to enjoy the easiest and fastest Kbd and notation layout to learn and play! That way I really won't need years lessons with a piano teacher or keep on practicing 22 more scales, its chord patterns and arpeggios. I leave it to professional musicians to enjoy the zebra piano and its notation. I can afford to benefit from progressive Kbd and notation layout. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:21 am 
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Posts: 297
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
jjj wrote:
Quote:
In other words, if you can play a C major scale, then you can also play the scales of D, E, F#, G#, A# major using the same fingering, but you can't necessarily play F, G, A, B, C# major. Whether you can depends on whether your C scale fingering confines itself to two rows.
Why not F. G, A, B, C# major scales?
I've explained this. The Janko recommended scale fingering for right hand C major is to play CDE with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers, then to go down a row to play F with the 1st finger (the thumb), then you go up two rows to play GA with 2nd and 3rd fingers, down two rows to play B with thumb, and up one row to play C with 2nd again. If you follow that recommended fingering, it means your scale requires the use of 3 rows. If you only have 3 rows, then this pattern can be transposed only sideways, not up or down.
Quote:
The scale pattern is always the same, consisting of: 3 keys, then 4 keys up; next octave the same! Of course I'll be always starting at the bottom or middle row.
Well, if you can play your scale using only two rows, that would be OK, but I'm not convinced that there exists a physiologically suitable fingering for doing that. If you play 3 keys, then go up for the next 4 keys, and down again for the next 3, and so on, then what fingers are you using to play these 7 keys? If, for example, you start with CDE with 234 in the middle row, you can't then go up and play F with 1 on the upper row because it involves too much physical contortion. If you play F with 1 it has to be on the bottom row. The question then is where you play the next notes.
Quote:
Quote:
Would you consider building a fourth row?
Sure, I could do that. Which 4th row are you referring to; a row above or under the 3 rows and what's the advantage?
I was thinking above, but I don't think it's all that important whether it goes above or below. You already have two rows with FGAB in them, but only one with CDE, so that's the one you need to duplicate. If you've already glued the first 3 rows in position as low as they will go (that is to say nearest the player) then it makes sense for the 4th row to go above, if there is enough room to fit them in. It would be unfortunate if you had to rip the existing 3 rows up.
Quote:
Quote:
You can't get completely away from theory!
That's why I like to apply my notation.
No, that is illogical. How can a notation which is designed to go directly from printed representation to which button you press, deliberately bypassing awareness of what note is involved, help your understanding of theory? Especially if you want to play by ear, you need to know what notes and chords you are playing, independently of which buttons you press to obtain them!
Quote:
That way I really won't need years lessons with a piano teacher or keep on practicing 22 more scales, its chord patterns and arpeggios.
I don't know where you got that nonsensical idea from. For practical play-by-ear purposes most tunes are in a small subset of all possible keys, so you don't need to learn 24 scales (actually it's 36, but let's not quibble) and 12 major and 12 minor chords, etc, at all, you can get away with far fewer. Besides, even if you did want to learn them all, you don't need a teacher's intensive help with that. It doesn't take years, it takes weeks. Nevertheless, if you want to develop good technique, some lessons are probably going to be very useful. The trouble is that because this unusual keyboard layout is so rarely used, the chances of finding a teacher familiar with it are very slim. Technique, particularly advanced technique, on a Janko-style keyboard is going to be quite different from on a normal keyboard. I would go so far as to guess that many pieces in the repertoire which are quite challenging on the normal keyboard are very much more difficult on Janko.

The conclusion is obvious: Without a teacher your progress will be restricted. If you limit yourself to Janko-style keyboard, you won't find a teacher. Therefore, if you want to make progress, you must abandon the Janko idea and embrace the conventional keyboard. For similar reasons, and others which I can go into if you wish, you need to learn and use conventional notation, this Klavarskribo is not as helpful to you as you may think. It will perhaps get you to a particular level quickly, but you will then be stuck at that level until you learn "proper" notation. So, far from saving you time, it wastes your time. I suggest that at your age wasting time is something you can ill afford to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:33 am 
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Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
Quote:
24 scales (actually it's 36, but let's not quibble)
Try 48! 12 minors x 3 versions =36, + 12 majors = 48. But for musician-pianists, there are more when counting the enharmonic spellings so as to make 60! Musicians actually think in either B major or Cb major, for example, as is necessary. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 am 
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Quote:
It would be unfortunate if you had to rip the existing 3 rows up.
As mentioned, I don't have this 3-row Janko / Uniform Kbd anymore on my Roland D20, because at that time I had no appropriate notation for it thus, learning was pretty frustrating. Now I plan to build a Janko Kbd over my Yamaha Tyros piano Kbd and use my "self-invented" notation, which is WYSIWYG type of notation, just like Klavarskribo, albeit especially modified to suit the Janko/ Uniform Kbd layout. Because the Klavarskribo notation is made for the traditional, zebra piano Kbd layout. Have a look at Klavarskribo, here: http://www.klavarmusic.org/
Quote:
I would go so far as to guess that many pieces in the repertoire which are quite challenging on the normal keyboard are very much more difficult on Janko.
Weird that you think so, because Janko experts claim the opposite: "Moved by the desire to enable the amateur to execute the brilliant, but technically exceedingly difficult, essays of our modern composers, Janko constructed a keyboard of six tiers, one above the other, similar to the organ keyboard. On this keyboard tenths, and twelfths, can easily be produced by reaching a finger to the keyboard above or below that on which the hand is traveling. Arpeggios through the whole compass of the keyboard can be executed with a sweep of the wrist, which on the ordinary keyboard would hardly cover two octaves. Indeed, with the Janko keyboard, the hand and arm of the player can always remain in their natural position, because to sound an octave requires only the stretch of the hand equal to the sounding of the sixth on the ordinary keyboard. It is difficult to realize the manifold possibilities which this keyboard opens up for the composer and performer. Entirely new music can be written by composers, containing chords, runs and arpeggios, utterly impossible to execute on the ordinary keyboard. It is not nearly so difficult for the student to master the technic of the Janko, as to become efficient on the present keyboard." Source: http://archive.org/stream/pianosandtheirm00dolggoog/pianosandtheirm00dolggoog_djvu.txt
Quote:
The conclusion is obvious: Without a teacher your progress will be restricted.
With my notation Ill be able to convert traditional notation of various zebra, piano Kbd tutors and thus, enjoy "professional guidance".


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:04 am 
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
musical-md wrote:
Quote:
24 scales (actually it's 36, but let's not quibble)
Try 48! 12 minors x 3 versions =36, + 12 majors = 48.
Of course, but since the context is fingerings, I was deliberately not counting one of the minor versions because it consists of the same notes as the relative major, and can therefore in principle (though wouldn't necessarily always) be fingered the same.
Quote:
But for musician-pianists, there are more when counting the enharmonic spellings so as to make 60!
Only 60?
Quote:
Musicians actually think in either B major or Cb major, for example, as is necessary.
Indeed, but this thinking wouldn't make them finger the scales differently, would it?


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
jjj wrote:
As mentioned, I don't have this 3-row Janko / Uniform Kbd anymore
Sorry, I missed that. It's a pity you threw it away. It might have been better if you had designed and built the adapter to be more easily transferable between keyboards, provided the keyboards in question all conform to standard key widths. Then you would not be restricted to your own instrument, but if you were going to play at someone else's house, you could leave your instrument behind and just take the adapter with you.
Quote:
Have a look at Klavarskribo,
I already have done, and I have terrible things to say about that too, I just haven't started yet! :)
Quote:
Quote:
I would go so far as to guess that many pieces in the repertoire which are quite challenging on the normal keyboard are very much more difficult on Janko.
Weird that you think so, because Janko experts claim the opposite:
They have an axe to grind, so their claims need to be taken cum grano salis. The claims of reduced difficulty seem in any case to be more related to span, and the keys being narrower, than to the changed layout leading to easier transposability.

Here are two reasons why the Janko layout is potentially more difficult to play than zebra layout:

1) Zebra keys are long, which gives the player the flexibility to make finger contact with them at any point along their length, to suit whatever position the hand is most comfortable in. Janko keys are short (they have to be for reachability reasons) and as a result the finger contact zone is much reduced in size, constraining the player's hand into potentially more uncomfortable shapes than they already can be with a normal keyboard.

2) It is often forgotten how useful it is to have the black keys at a higher level than the whites. This provides tactile feedback of hand position, so that the player doesn't need to look at the keys so much and can concentrate on reading the notes. Without this orienteering aid, a Janko player is more likely than a zebra player to slam his chord down one or two keys to the left or right, or a row up or down, from where it should be.
Quote:
Quote:
The conclusion is obvious: Without a teacher your progress will be restricted.
With my notation Ill be able to convert traditional notation of various zebra, piano Kbd tutors and thus, enjoy "professional guidance".
No, you won't. Your notation is designed (by you) to help you play on a Janko adapter. Your teacher, unless you are by coincidence lucky enough to find one who is a Janko expert, can't help you with that. A Janko piano (even without the key downsizing) and a normal piano are sufficiently different that many skills are simply not transferable from one to the other. Simply put, that means: if you are going to have lessons, you need to learn zebra, and if you want to learn Janko, you can't have lessons.

Also, it isn't going to help if you and your teacher aren't "singing from the same hymn sheet". Lessons aren't going to be very productive if your teacher is working from conventional notation and you from your own, because teaching will often involve pointing out things on the sheet. You may end up teaching your teachers about your notation, but don't forget who is paying whom for the lessons!

I'll say more about notation at a later stage, but KS notation is just so deficient in several important ways, that it will not do you any good in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:44 pm 
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the lengths people will go to avoid doing the simple. It reminds me of Irving Berlin's piano: since he could not be bothered to learn the scales he had a piano constructed especially with seven pedals, one for each accidental, so that by depressing one pedal, for example, f became f sharp, allowing a D scale to be played with the same keys as the C scale.

Or P. MacCartney, who needed a sidekick to write down his requiem, because learning to read music wouldd (in his mind) have reduced his creativity. What a great composer was smothered by this hard-headedness and we were left with a half-baked songwriter.

_________________
Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:38 pm 
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I only put the idea of creating a Janko adapter into my PDF, in the hope some manufacturer picks it up and markets it.
I wonder what's so terrible about Klavarskribo? I imagine... it doesn't conform to present standards and availability issues?
Anything else? :?
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Here are two reasons why the Janko layout is potentially more difficult to play than zebra layout:
1) Zebra keys are long, which gives the player the flexibility to make finger contact with them at any point along their length, to suit whatever position the hand is most comfortable in. Janko keys are short (they have to be for reachability reasons) and as a result the finger contact zone is much reduced in size, constraining the player's hand into potentially more uncomfortable shapes than they already can be with a normal keyboard.
2) It is often forgotten how useful it is to have the black keys at a higher level than the whites. This provides tactile feedback of hand position, so that the player doesn't need to look at the keys so much and can concentrate on reading the notes. Without this orienteering aid, a Janko player is more likely than a zebra player to slam his chord down one or two keys to the left or right, or a row up or down, from where it should be.
Zebra Problem: 1) Its Kbd layout is C-maj only. 2) Its black keys are only 1cm wide and it takes ages to get my brains programmed to that narrow error margin; whereas Janko keys are all equally sized at 2cm width; i.e. allowing for a generous 2cm error margin!
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...if you are going to have lessons, you need to learn zebra, and if you want to learn Janko, you can't have lessons.
Well, that's right: many/ most of the exercises required in a zebra Kbd tutor mightn't apply, because of Janko's simplicity. Yet, I will find lots of other useful exercise guidelines in it. Actually it might be fun to laugh the unnecessary exercises and payment to teachers away... :D
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I'll say more about notation at a later stage, but KS notation is just so deficient in several important ways, that it will not do you any good in the long run.

KS is being taught at the conservatory of music in Holland. It must be that you know better or they are wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Young pensioner (70) learning the piano Kbd by ear...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:36 pm
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
richard66 wrote:
the lengths people will go to avoid doing the simple. It reminds me of Irving Berlin's piano: since he could not be bothered to learn the scales he had a piano constructed especially with seven pedals, one for each accidental, so that by depressing one pedal, for example, f became f sharp, allowing a D scale to be played with the same keys as the C scale.
I didn't know that. He must have picked up the idea from the harp, which has seven 3-position pedals, so each of the seven notes (simultaneously in all octaves) can be flat, natural, or sharp. The harp of course has just 7 strings per octave. It must be the easiest instrument in the world to play scales on! :)


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