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 Post subject: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:25 am 
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I am posting these in three separate messages since apparently there is a 10-attachment limit. Strange, since I know I have uploaded more than that before, but oh well, it is what it is.

Finally finished recording the Chopin preludes. A few specific notes on the recording:

1. I used entirely different miking for this recording. And the mics are....none other than the two little stereo mics on the top of the Zoom H4N, which are amazingly good I must say. Finally, the piano sounds like our piano. This is after years of frustration using the AT 4033s, which are very good mics, but I was never able to achieve the right balance. I'm no audiophile by any means -- I just want something that's clear and basically even across the range, and this is much more satisfactory to me in that regard. Hopefully it will be to listeners too. I don't know why I didn't think of this when I got it since the mics are right there. Oh well, live and learn, the story of my life :roll:

2. I tried to focus on balance and phrasing throughout -- thanks to the helpful PS comments on that subject in the past. IMO it's also the primary aspect that makes the preludes so difficult to play with their often rather lush accompanimental figures. No. 3 in particular I think I sang the melody much better than in the past. As to Nos. 4 and 6, I think better achieve what I want to do with the rubato without distorting the rhythm too much, so I'll be interested to see what you think (especially Monica :wink: ).

3. There are some small slips in a few of the most difficult preludes. I think mostly they went pretty well, but oh well, shit happens :D I am pleased to continue my present trend of completely unedited recordings (with the exception of reverb of course), and the problem with doing multiple takes of the most difficult preludes is of course that they're physically tiring, so most were in one or two takes. Nos. 12 and 16 are the most difficult for me by far. No. 12 is the only one that's really difficult for me physically and I worked my ass off on it and was fairly pleased with the final result, though I probably slowed down more than I wanted in the middle section. As for 16, I believe von Bulow called it "Hades" and no description seems more apposite to me since it is a piece from hell! One passage at the end (right leading in to the final arpeggios), no matter how much I practice it in isolation and play it perfectly, gives me problems in the final performance :x In other words, I apologize for it, but there's a couple of more significant flubs in this one :P I changed some fingerings in the past couple of months so I will probably return and redo it when they've had more time to sink in to my reflexes.

All in all, I'm glad that I've at least made a big improvement in these from the past, recognizing that they are work for a lifetime. Much of my time has been spent eradicating bad habits that I don't have with other works, since this is the first complete Chopin set that I learned in my youth. Sorry to ramble on, especially in my initial post; it always seems to happen regarding Chopin :wink:

Comments are very much appreciated (don't worry, I saw the discussion of "enjoy" in another thread :lol: )


Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 1: Agitato (0:35)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 2: Lento (2:27)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 3: Vivace (1:00)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 4: Largo (1:57)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 5: Molto allegro (0:34)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 6: Lento assai (1:53)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 7: Andantino (0:42)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 8: Molto agitato (1:53)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 9: Largo (1:11)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 10: Molto allegro (0:32)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 11: Vivace (0:36)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 12: Presto (1:09)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 13: Lento (2:56)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 14: Allegro (0:33)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 15: Sostenuto (4:51)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 16: Presto con fuoco (1:08)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 17: Allegretto (3:14)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 18: Molto allegro (0:59)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 19: Vivace (1:14)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 20: Largo (1:22)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 21: Cantabile (1:46)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 22: Molto agitato (0:42)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 23: Moderato (0:49)
Chopin - 24 Preludes Op.28 - 24: Allegro appassionato (2:22)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:51 am 
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Joe,
First my hat goes off to you for accomplishing such a difficult project! Kudos! (As I may have said before, there are several pieces here that I just don't care for, even if Chopin wrote them.) My favorites of your performances are: 8, 13, 15, 16. There is much fine playing throughout, but I thought you did and extra cut above on those for me. Congratulations.
Eddy

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:56 am 
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Bravo!!!! This is the most ambitious undertaking I've heard in my 3 year tenure here! The 24 Preludes are truly a monumental undertaking for any pianist - professional or amateur. Personally, I find that these works are a good measure for any pianist, both musically, and technically - Perhaps even a "Holy Grail" of pianistic achievement, IMHO! I don't know whether you're professional, student, or amateur?... It will be difficult to comment without knowing anything about your background because Preludes like Nos. 8, 12, 16, 19 are not for amateurs.

However, there are places where there's room for improvement in terms of musicality. No. 24 too fast to savor the pathos, too flip in the left hand, ending is awkwardly disjointed (I thought you were going to give up on the last 2 Ds). Nos. 16, and 18 showed liberties with addition of extra notes at the end. No. 12 was a bit rushed at the end. I didn't listen to all of them, but I notice that on the melodic slower Preludes, there is greater need for musical maturity, e.g. Nos. 4, 6, 15, 17, 20, 21. More sensitivity to touch needs to be implemented, and in certain parts erratic and exaggerated rubato takes away from the performance.

In terms of technique, you have it, even though a bit more clarity can be had on the more difficult passages. However, I come away with the feeling that you play like an engineer - technically great, the notes are there for the most part, but musically not quite satisfying on some of the Preludes. Forgive me for being blunt, but I don't know if you're a professional or a student? I am assuming that you are based on the completion of a difficult set of Preludes... However, If you're an amateur, then don't take it personally. You are a part of an elite few who has succeeded on a rare feat! In any case, congratulations!

As far as mics are concerned, I wish you contacted me, I would have lent you mine for such a large scale project. Heck, I've done it in the past for others. Your AT-4033 is a cardiod - difficult to get a natural sound from cardiod pattern. It can sound thin in the bass, certain notes can even sound "out of tune" due to off-axis response if you place them too close to the strings. You're far better off using an omnidirectional or a wide-cardiod mic, even in a "bad room" - just bring it closer to the strings, to minimize the room effects. Don't worry about getting too close, because when you add reverb later, the sound diffuses and gives the illusion of adding more distance so as to balance the overall sound at the end. If you want some suggestions on recording and mics, this thread might help: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2844

George

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:34 am 
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Hi,

Bravo! I just listened to all 24--the whole kit and caboodle. Playing this complete set is a lofty accomplishment. Congratulations on your artistry and the prodigious technique that served your musical intentions so well. I play some of these pieces quite differently, but diversity of interpretations is one of the most interesting facets of piano performance which keeps it all so interesting. I certainly respect your decisions. Overall, this is an outstanding set. (And thanks for playing the E natural in No. 20--we're in the minority on that detail! :lol: )

I just looked through the volume. Years ago I recorded 12 of these preludes. In scanning them now, there are 7 more that I could and should learn, so hopefully I can cycle back to these pieces someday to add those to my repertoire. As for the remaining 5... I'm afraid that I'd have to leave those to pianists more capable than I.

Thanks for posting this complete set! I thoroughly enjoyed hearing it.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:38 am 
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I listened to Nos. 8, 24, and 16 (in that order), and then I find that George has spelled out my thoughts exactly on nearly every point (including the bravo for the undertaking). It seems to me that, for example, in No. 8, the technique is essentially under your control, but I think you are killing yourself with the relative lack of pedal, and the time you take with certain difficulties becomes regular to the point that the line is continually disjointed. It seems to me that you could easily eliminate that problem with just a little more pedal - I understand the temptation to make every line clear in this one, but I doubt it was intended to be played quite that way - this is one of those that in my opinion needs a lot of half-pedaling, and subtle pedaling. One can hear the effects of tension in your hands, and I think that's especially so in No. 16 (out of the three I listened to), but also evident in the other two. It's just more obvious in No. 16 because one is accustomed to hearing the line played very smooth and legato, so those moments of tension stick out.

Again, congrats on learning all of these. The great thing about an undertaking like this is that you gain so much from it, even if you don't necessarily gain all that can be gained on the first attempt. Like the etudes, these are pieces to work on your whole life.

PS - I should add that my experience with the etudes has been similar to your experience with the preludes. There are always more bad habits to overcome, but it sure is nice to overcome them.

George wrote:
(I thought you were going to give up on the last 2 Ds)

Me too. But what can you say about that? Obviously he likes it that way. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:51 am 
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Quote:
Joe,
First my hat goes off to you for accomplishing such a difficult project! Kudos! (As I may have said before, there are several pieces here that I just don't care for, even if Chopin wrote them.) My favorites of your performances are: 8, 13, 15, 16. There is much fine playing throughout, but I thought you did and extra cut above on those for me. Congratulations.
Eddy


Thanks, Eddy. Always interesting to see which of these one liked best. IMHO too particularly 8 and 15 were two that came out well in terms of what I wanted to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:50 am 
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Quote:
Bravo!!!! This is the most ambitious undertaking I've heard in my 3 year tenure here! The 24 Preludes are truly a monumental undertaking for any pianist - professional or amateur. Personally, I find that these works are a good measure for any pianist, both musically, and technically - Perhaps even a "Holy Grail" of pianistic achievement, IMHO! I don't know whether you're professional, student, or amateur?... It will be difficult to comment without knowing anything about your background because Preludes like Nos. 8, 12, 16, 19 are not for amateurs.


Thanks for the compliments, George, and for your candid assessment. I appreciate that. I agree that there is always need for improvement, although not really in the same way you do perhaps (more on that in a bit).

In answer to your question, I'm fully an amateur who made the conscious decision in my teenage years not to bother with going into music, basically because I wanted to eat :mrgreen. And both my parents being classically conservatory trained pianists, my eyes were pretty open from a young age. I had the privilege of taking from a student of Cortot in college whom I learned much from technically and musically.

Quote:
However, there are places where there's room for improvement in terms of musicality. No. 24 too fast to savor the pathos, too flip in the left hand, ending is awkwardly disjointed (I thought you were going to give up on the last 2 Ds). Nos. 16, and 18 showed liberties with addition of extra notes at the end. No. 12 was a bit rushed at the end. I didn't listen to all of them, but I notice that on the melodic slower Preludes, there is greater need for musical maturity, e.g. Nos. 4, 6, 15, 17, 20, 21. More sensitivity to touch needs to be implemented, and in certain parts erratic and exaggerated rubato takes away from the performance.


You may very well have some point here, but if I can also be frank, comments like this are part of why I would never in a million years have wanted to go into playing the piano professionally. It has little to do with my ego; I always welcome specific criticisms and put myself in the position of a student who has much to learn. It has more to do with the fact that I find these rather vague assertions that "critics" throw around to be meaningless crap, usually because they want to champion their personal favorite and denigrate everyone else (i.e., rather unobjectively). To illustrate, when you say that Prelude No. 24 is "too fast to savor the pathos," I frankly have no idea of what that means or whether the words even go correctly together. Literally, that would say that you find this piece as principally evoking sympathy and compassion. Perhaps we just have different conceptions of it. I personally find Cortot's description of it as "Blood, Passion, and Death" to be more fitting. To me, it is a tale of martial bloodlust brought on by war and final collapse on the battlefield represented in those final D's, and should thus be rather heroically impetuous.

The liberties I take with adding extra notes at the end? It's just octave doublings and chord fillings. My personal choice, I like the fuller effect more. And thank god I don't have to listen to cheese-sniffing critics pointing it out to me. "Unfaithful to the score! Unfaithful to the score!"

Regarding rubato, this is very much a matter of personal taste. In the modern day, one hears it, and it's usually poorly applied IMHO. Maybe it is in my case too, but I did work it out and make conscious decisions about it. Again, without more explanation, this means little to me.

As for musical maturity, that may be, but again, I have no way of even knowing what you mean. IMHO it seems a matter of courtesy to someone on a forum you are exchanging messages and ideas with, when you take issue with something, to explain why. The point really is that such things could be said about anybody's playing, even the greatest of the great, who IMO aren't great because they played it a standard way but because they played it in a new way, which is why Kissin, Pogorelich, Argerich, Ashkenazy, Garrick Ohlsson, as fluid and perfect as they are, will never interest me and I will never think they're great. (Ohlsson is one who I remembered sounding very slow and labored to me on No. 24 -- just my opinion of course.) It's all bland and boring and the same. Cortot and Sofronitsky are a different matter. I would certainly never begin to put myself even remotely in the league with any of the above. I only say it to point out that I'm a bit sick of people vaguely criticizing my "musicality," which is all that really matters to a pianist in the end (technique being a means to an end) and may largely be a matter of taste, without feeling the need to explain themselves further. But then, if you're the type who likes Kissin's or Pogo's moonings and strainings, we're probably doomed to never agree on these matters anyway. I have carefully thought through my interpretations for these. Not what you were expecting perhaps, but c'est la vie.

Sorry for me also to be a bit blunt in my reply, but I think it's better to be honest (and a good thing about PS) rather than hold it in. Thanks again for the compliments and your advice about recordings etc. I respect your comments about musicality but, even upon relistening, don't really understand them.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:20 am 
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Quote:
It seems to me that, for example, in No. 8, the technique is essentially under your control, but I think you are killing yourself with the relative lack of pedal, and the time you take with certain difficulties becomes regular to the point that the line is continually disjointed.


I can see why you'd say this, but the piece is, after all, a "Molto Agitato." Therefore, whether I'm capable of it or not, I personally don't want to adopt a prissy, fluid approach to this (i.e., Pogorelich or Pollini). This is a storm, a torrent of the vicissitudes of emotion, as well as one that is inherently rhythmically uneven, hence the agitato. The technical point of this is differentiating melody from an orchestral accompanimental figure, and there may be more work for me there in certain places, but overall I think I accomplish it. And if I may say so, amateur that I am, Pogo doesn't. He emotionally and technically misses the point of the piece. I just chose him as one example, but five others I heard, including Argerich and Ashkenazy, all sound basically the same.

Quote:
It seems to me that you could easily eliminate that problem with just a little more pedal - I understand the temptation to make every line clear in this one, but I doubt it was intended to be played quite that way


Actually, I follow Chopin's pedal markings to the letter, at least in my edition (take it off right on the conclusion of each LH triplet). Listening back, it does sound clear but not overly so for my taste. I don't hear every note, but I hear that it's in eight, and that's what one should hear. Personally, I don't think anything in Chopin or any other composer should be awash in pedal. That's just covering up for what your fingers can't do.

Quote:
One can hear the effects of tension in your hands, and I think that's especially so in No. 16 (out of the three I listened to), but also evident in the other two. It's just more obvious in No. 16 because one is accustomed to hearing the line played very smooth and legato, so those moments of tension stick out.


There's really no tension in my hands at all, nor IMHO can anyone ever claim to "hear" such a thing -- at least it makes no sense to me. No. 12 I did at one point have tension with, but I overcame that. No. 16 has never been tension-building for me, just not easy to get through unscathed at a presto tempo. The problems as I see them are mainly polish on a very difficult set, mainly because I don't have 8, or for that matter, even 2 or 3, hours to practice consistently on a nightly basis.

Quote:
The great thing about an undertaking like this is that you gain so much from it, even if you don't necessarily gain all that can be gained on the first attempt. Like the etudes, these are pieces to work on your whole life.


Yes, definitely. I for one know that I will never accomplish that in my life and have no pretense to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:09 pm 
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I've increased the 10-attachment limit (which we probably thought was adequate at the time) to 50. You may want to attach your other preludes to this posting and delete the other two postings (as they've not been commented on yet), or merge the other two postings into this one.

Good playing overall, and an awesome achievement. I will put them on the site at earliest convenience.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:31 pm 
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techneut wrote:
I've increased the 10-attachment limit (which we probably thought was adequate at the time) to 50. You may want to attach your other preludes to this posting and delete the other two postings (as they've not been commented on yet), or merge the other two postings into this one.

On second thought, don't bother with that. I will put these up tonight and replace the attachments by links anyway. I've locked the other two threads and will remove them when done.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Quote:
On second thought, don't bother with that. I will put these up tonight and replace the attachments by links anyway. I've locked the other two threads and will remove them when done.


Nah, don't bother. I don't want to pollute any of the wonderful interpretations of these pieces on the site with my engineer-like and tension-filled efforts. Thanks for the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:16 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Nah, don't bother. I don't want to pollute any of the wonderful interpretations of these pieces on the site with my engineer-like and tension-filled efforts. Thanks for the time.

Something gone down the wrong way again Joe ?
Well if you don't want them on the site I won't put them up, easy as that.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Wow, what's going on? I was just going to go to lunch in a few minutes and listen to some of these Preludes while I'm sitting in the park. Now I don't know....
Joe, do you want any comments from me?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Quote:
Joe, do you want any comments from me?


Sure, your comments are welcome and you can criticize at will. What I didn't appreciate about the posts above is that one made blanket statements about my "musicality" and my playing like an "engineer" without pointing to any real details and the other made outrageous assertions about tension that she could have no way of knowing, which I resent in two people who, at least these days, never (rarely?) post any recordings of their own to be criticized. And they phrase it as statements of fact. It's quite a bit different to be told that your rubato is erratic and exaggerated flat out and be told that someone doesn't agree with it. And god, to be told that I have tension in my hands, how absurd! Oh well, I basically admitted in my initial post that these aren't finished, but as good as I can get them for now. At least I tried... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Yeah, no sweat. This is why I generally don't comment on recordings, but it's expected, so... :wink: I post recordings for comments sometimes, but not in the AR; I'm waiting until I produce something I can be proud of.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:38 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Sure, your comments are welcome and you can criticize at will. What I didn't appreciate about the posts above is that one made blanket statements about my "musicality" and my playing like an "engineer" without pointing to any real details and the other made outrageous assertions about tension that she could have no way of knowing, which I resent in two people who, at least these days, never (rarely?) post any recordings of their own to be criticized. And they phrase it as statements of fact. It's quite a bit different to be told that your rubato is erratic and exaggerated flat out and be told that someone doesn't agree with it. And god, to be told that I have tension in my hands, how absurd! Oh well, I basically admitted in my initial post that these aren't finished, but as good as I can get them for now. At least I tried... :roll:

Alternatively, you could have asked yourself if there might me some truth behind these thought-provoking statements, instead of huffing and puffing about it, demanding proof and details. I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it. Personally I find it more constructive to take criticism to heart, and do something with it, than to balk against it. But ok, everybody is different.

Now just be clear about whether you want these on the site or not. It's is fine with me either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Quote:
Alternatively, you could have asked yourself if there might me some truth behind these thought-provoking statements, instead of huffing and puffing about it, demanding proof and details.


There may well be, but I will never know without the details or be able to apply a whit of it. Sad, really. In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you.

Quote:
I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it.


Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

Quote:
Now just be clear about whether you want these on the site or not. It's is fine with me either way.


No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before). After all, how can he deny that an auditor hears the effect of playing with a tense hand? It sounded tense to the listener, that's all there was to it, whether Joe accepted it or not - but of course he'll have nothing of it. His anger really surprises me. I wonder if some comments just cut "too close to home," recalling something someone more important to him than us also said?
:(

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:06 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it.


Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

Sometimes one is reluctant to be the first one to say it. Not Chris, though...surely not. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:18 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).

I admire your ability to do that. I have a very hard time dropping sweet comments on a recording when there are things about it that bother me. Even very nicely-played live performances like Rich's nocturnes, when the bothersome details are small and almost not worth worrying about (and a matter of opinion to boot).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:22 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
There may well be, but I will never know without the details or be able to apply a whit of it. Sad, really. In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you.

Ah shucks, millions of people play better than I do. I've no trouble admitting that. Then again, I play better than millions of people. That is what keeps me going.

jlr43 wrote:
Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

I usually do not read others' comments before listening to something, so as not to be biased. And I did not in this case, but decided right away against voicing certain reservations I had. Not that it matters much.

jlr43 wrote:
No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical.

Fine with me. Saves a lot of work :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:04 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).

Same here. Some people have their interpretations all worked out, backed up by historical evidence, to the point there is no point in pointing out an alternative point of view.

Terez wrote:
Sometimes one is reluctant to be the first one to say it. Not Chris, though...surely not.

Surely not. But I do know when to shut up :)

Terez wrote:
I admire your ability to do that. I have a very hard time dropping sweet comments on a recording when there are things about it that bother me. Even very nicely-played live performances like Rich's nocturnes, when the bothersome details are small and almost not worth worrying about (and a matter of opinion to boot).

I understand that on one hand, and OTOH I don't. It is a bit sad if we can't muster any enthusiasm or words of encouragement because of some very minor flaws. I do believe we should be able to point out good things too, not just the bad things (I realize I'll have to put my money where my mouth is here). To Joe's credit, he usually does that when offering criticism.

Great discussion ! At last some life again in the old forum (thanks Joe). Pity I have to go to bed.... But something to look forward to for tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:15 pm 
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techneut wrote:
I understand that on one hand, and OTOH I don't. It is a bit sad if we can't muster any enthusiasm or words of encouragement because of some very minor flaws. I do believe we should be able to point out good things too, not just the bad things (I realize I'll have to put my money where my mouth is here).

I usually do point out the things I like. Sometimes, though, the only good thing I can come up with is 'you played most of the notes correctly', or perhaps something along the lines of 'A complete set! An accomplishment even if the performances are unconvincing.'

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Quote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).


This claim is totally false. Please look back at the two previous Beethoven and Liszt recordings, as well as the initial Chopin/Scriabin, in which I accepted almost everything Chris, in particular, had to say and thanked people graciously for their comments, many of which were critical. They were specific, and I could use them to improve, and I tried to. I don't like generalizations; I think they're garbage made to think the reviewer is high and mighty and really the arbiter of taste and I'm human and take offense to that. There was really nothing specifically good that anyone could say about my preludes, and that means I failed or no one is even hearing a fraction of what I hear. Whatever. Also note that you willfully misconstrued my initialy argument with you, which was specifically about the fact that I gave Jana Marinova a less-than-glowing review when I had every right to and you questioned that right. It really had nothing to do with your criticisms, my opinion of which I kept silent until you asked me later. But you kept on thinking it did, no matter how many times I told you it didn't. No use talking to a stone wall.

Quote:
How can he deny that an auditor hears the effect of playing with a tense hand?


I can deny it because it logically makes no sense. Then say the effect was too tight or tense. There's no possible way that could be known about my physical hand. It's a rather personal statement and is, I can honestly say, completely false.

Quote:
His anger really surprises me. I wonder if some comments just cut "too close to home," recalling something someone more important to him than us also said?


Nope. I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years. I guess I just really don't relate to a group setting, where people are just too spineless to do anything except be titillated by agreeing with each other and ganging up on outsiders. I may go back to my former teacher, who did nothing but tear apart the performance details, not prattle on about arcane rhythmic divisions and pedagogy. It's always good to know how one is received in the wider world and now I have some sense of that, so thank you for that. I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Joe, if you leave now you won't be able to cut me to shreds when I submit in (hopefully within) 3-4 weeks, maybe sooner. You'll certainly want to stick around for that. :twisted: However, I have to echo Chris in remarking that your critiques per se of other's performances are by-and-large very fair and considered, even insightful sometimes (we musicians are all idiologues, after all). It's your replies to those who critique you that are just horrible. Look at some of the labels/adjectives you've used. It's simply childish.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:21 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Nope. I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years.

It must have built up something inside you, is my guess. I can't explain your waspish reactions otherwise.

jlr43 wrote:
I guess I just really don't relate to a group setting, where people are just too spineless to do anything except be titillated by agreeing with each other and ganging up on outsiders.

Do I detect a hint of generalization here ?

jlr43 wrote:
I may go back to my former teacher, who did nothing but tear apart the performance details, not prattle on about arcane rhythmic divisions and pedagogy. It's always good to know how one is received in the wider world and now I have some sense of that, so thank you for that. I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.

Oh no please don't go :lol:

But if you can't bear with spineless pompous prattlers like us, it might indeed be best to try elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:43 am 
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I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up', because honestly, I probably would have kept my comments to myself if George hadn't spelled them out first. I like George, but I wouldn't exactly say we're close, so have no fear that it's some sort of conspiracy. He just happened to say what was on my mind, and that encouraged me to post my thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:12 am 
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Terez wrote:
I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up',

No, don't. There is no reason why we should be allowed to agree with each other over something.
It is rather paranoid to perceive that as 'ganging up'.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:21 am 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up',

No, don't. There is no reason why we should be allowed to agree with each other over something.
It is rather paranoid to perceive that as 'ganging up'.

Okay, then. I feel like I should at least acknowledge that I am a coward. Sometimes. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Dear Joe,

I wish this didn't go all crazy like what has happened before. I was too busy yesterday to chime in, and frankly I was getting worn out just trying to keep with everybody so I couldn't make myself even bother to say anything. I'm trying to stay neutral through all this, but have to tell you that you brought this all on yourself. You have to remember that those here who commented had to invest a lot of their personal time listening to You play and then they took even more time to say some words about your playing. True, you don't always have to agree on everything - lots of times we all disagree. But to come back with such biting words has essentially ensured that no one will want to ever comment on your recordings again. And not only that, but I don't want outsiders to see what has happened here for fear that they will be too afraid to ever want to speak on our forum.

You are a very good pianist, but you need a softer manner when commenting here. Since you asked for my opinion on your Preludes - specifically your use of rubato, I'll tell you what I think. But if you bite my head off, then I'll....well...I dunno what, but I'll do something. :)

I only listened to the Preludes I like most which were 10, 12, 13, and 21. I think you played them all just fine and really have nothing to nitpick, except that on no. 21, the first part, the left hands sounds a little too 'notey' and could use a little more pedal. I've been accused of playing too 'notey' before in certain pieces too - and usually I like to be 'too notey' at times. You're probably happy playing this prelude this way too and it's not bad, but just could go a little smoother with a touch on the pedal and fit with the whole piece better.

Then I listened to nos. 4 and 6. No. 6 I think is fine. No.4 is another story. You start out fine, but then bar 12 - that lead-in to the second part is I feel too abrupt and jarring. From that point on, you get faster and faster and the whole part sound so angry! I thought this piece is supposed to be played 'lento' or 'largo' (not looking at the score now) throughout. Did you drop the LH octave in the middle? I did like that!

Well, that's it. Since you have not bothered to comment on most of my recordings, you will understand if I don't listen to the rest of your Preludes.

~Monica

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Hi Joe,

I gave you very favorable comments--which went unacknowledged. Now I see from your comments that "generalizations" are "garbage", which must surely include praise as well. But it's your right to be dismissive. In future I'll reserve my time and comments for the work of other pianists here. Again thanks for the opportunity to hear your Chopin Preludes.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Quote:
It must have built up something inside you, is my guess. I can't explain your waspish reactions otherwise.


The criticism? Nope. But, to repeat myself, I don't like when people dismiss something as needing more musicality (about as vague a statement as you can make), and then don't explain why, for it's that "why" that might enable me to improve. From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about. That's really the only thing that bothers me is when people do that -- toss around empty adjectives and characterizations that, of course, cannot help but influence other people who see it -- for what to do about that in the short term...if something lacks musicality, then I guess it just does for that person, but it's sort of unproductive for the person being commented on. But yes, I admit it's their prerogative to do so. Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course; Julian Gorus's nocturne is the one exception recently -- wow). For example, I detest Kissin and find it totally unmusical; many others will disagree and that's fine. I usually have a very definite idea (particularly for standard repertoire like Chopin) of exactly what I want to hear in a particular piece (akin to Terez's "pickiness" I guess :P ), but I also try to hear it from the other person's perspective. In many cases, though, something is downright fumbling and gauche IMO but I still try to find something encouraging to say, and of course that would generally fall into the "musical" category -- i.e., when the technique is bad, it's difficult to even tell (e.g., when it's uneven, grossly pedalled, unclear) what the musical intention is, but I still try because I think that's more appropriate for an amateur forum. But certainly, I'd be glad to use the same style I use when I write critical reviews of professional performances -- that is, be brutally honest and tear apart technique, interpretation, everything, say exactly what I think. I could have started with your Kinderszenen :mrgreen: I could be like Terez and post nothing and only comment on others. :)

Second, I apologize for any "labels" I may have used. You're right, that was uncalled for.

Third, I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up? I know how imperfect these are, but it will probably be the last thing I post for a while anyway; things are going to get busy at work soon.

Thanks,

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:49 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about.

That could be the problem, that we don't know what we are talking about here.

jlr43 wrote:
Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course;

Then why on earth are you hanging out here with us dumb unmusical amateurs ? Isn't there some elite piano club where only recordings according to your taste are produced ?

jlr43 wrote:
I could have started with your Kinderszenen :mrgreen:

Oh yes, I'd fully expected you to tear those to shreds. Got away lucky didn't I !

jlr43 wrote:
Second, I apologize for any "labels" I may have used. You're right, that was uncalled for.

Third, I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up? I know how imperfect these are, but it will probably be the last thing I post for a while anyway; things are going to get busy at work soon.


Anything for you Joe, obviously. I'd gladly spend an hour or so of my free time to host your recordings. I'm too baffled by your unexpected volte-face to say no anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:50 pm 
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You're right, David. Joe didn't acknowledge me either! Thanks a lot Joe. :x And now you expect us to put up the recordings? Do you know how long that will take.... :?: :x

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Oh Chris, you got in before me. If you want me to help, I can do so over the weekend. There is no rush here.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Quote:
You have to remember that those here who commented had to invest a lot of their personal time listening to You play and then they took even more time to say some words about your playing. True, you don't always have to agree on everything - lots of times we all disagree.


Very true -- but then, so have I. At least Chris acknowledged that, but I don't think anyone else has. And yes, we don't have to agree on everything (it's far more interesting if we don't), but I don't phrase my comments as absolute. I'll often say that it's only my limited opinion (e.g., IMHO) and not come in like George, acting like a bit of a hot shot and as if he has the last word on it.

Quote:
But to come back with such biting words has essentially ensured that no one will want to ever comment on your recordings again. And not only that, but I don't want outsiders to see what has happened here for fear that they will be too afraid to ever want to speak on our forum.


I apologize for that.

Quote:
You are a very good pianist, but you need a softer manner when commenting here.


Commenting on others? The only thing I would object to in this statement is that if people feel that they can, for instance, use adjectives (like "ugly," "erratic," "lacking musicality," "heavy-handed" in the past) and say what they think about my playing, I should be allowed to do the same and not hold back. I've held back many such descriptors and thoughts in the past (though I'm not certainly not at all innocent of it), because I don't think it's really productive, but as they say, it's a two-way street. And in particular, those who dish out should be willing to take as well. You're right that I overreacted here, but I've taken many comments gracefully in the past, so I don't think Eddy's comments were fair either. The bottom line is that anyone putting stuff out for the world ought to be ready to take any type of criticism or comments the way a professional would, and that would include, to some extent, some of my responses to them, without getting bent out of shape about it. That's the way it is in the world. I apologize again for some of the comments in this thread crossing over into "rude" territory.

Quote:
Since you asked for my opinion on your Preludes - specifically your use of rubato, I'll tell you what I think. But if you bite my head off, then I'll....well...I dunno what, but I'll do something.


No, I never would with you anyway. When you object to something, you pretty much always say why (and are clear about it too), and I appreciate that.

Quote:
except that on no. 21, the first part, the left hands sounds a little too 'notey' and could use a little more pedal. I've been accused of playing too 'notey' before in certain pieces too - and usually I like to be 'too notey' at times. You're probably happy playing this prelude this way too and it's not bad, but just could go a little smoother with a touch on the pedal and fit with the whole piece better.


I agree. I think I need to work the pedaling out better for 21 (one of the more subtle ones to interpret IMO). It seems easy for it either to be too dry or too muddled.

Quote:
Then I listened to nos. 4 and 6. No. 6 I think is fine. No.4 is another story. You start out fine, but then bar 12 - that lead-in to the second part is I feel too abrupt and jarring. From that point on, you get faster and faster and the whole part sound so angry! I thought this piece is supposed to be played 'lento' or 'largo' (not looking at the score now) throughout. Did you drop the LH octave in the middle? I did like that!


I agree about No. 4 as well, I think especially the triplet was a little too quick and jarring, so it gave that effect. What can I say about anger? I'm still an angry young man :P

Quote:
Well, that's it. Since you have not bothered to comment on most of my recordings, you will understand if I don't listen to the rest of your Preludes.


To be honest, I don't think this is quite fair. In fact, I think I have commented on more of your recordings than you have of mine. I recorded on 3 or 4 of yours at the beginning (couple of Chopin, Granados, and maybe something else I can't remember) plus that recent video, and this is really only the second time you have ever commented on mine (first was the first Chopin prelude takes, though that was very brief). At least this is how I remember it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Quote:
Then why on earth are you hanging out here with us dumb unmusical amateurs ? Isn't there some elite piano club where only recordings according to your taste are produced ?


Geez, Chris, all I meant was that taste is very individual, and my playing is not for most taste, but I can also say that about most other people. Terez seems to agree about this aspect, at least I thought. I hate to bring this up, but do you think I would have donated $200 to the site if I didn't basically like it? This is what I mean about ganging up. Regarding being honest about things, damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess. Maybe I just have no life nor free time to practice for "polished" performances, so this is my only outlet...

Quote:
Anything for you Joe, obviously. I'd gladly spend an hour or so of my free time to host your recordings. I'm too baffled by your unexpected volte-face to say no anyway.


Thanks again, and sorry that I'm such an unwelcome asshole.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Quote:
I gave you very favorable comments--which went unacknowledged. Now I see from your comments that "generalizations" are "garbage", which must surely include praise as well. But it's your right to be dismissive. In future I'll reserve my time and comments for the work of other pianists here. Again thanks for the opportunity to hear your Chopin Preludes.


David,

I'm very sorry, I completely missed your post before. Yes, I prefer more specific comments, even about good things, but whatever, just my dumb limited opinion, for what it's worth. Thanks again for the comments and sorry about missing your post before.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Oh don't start being all reasonable about it now. You're no fun anymore :roll: :lol:

I'll put them up tonight and be done with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:11 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
To be honest, I don't think this is quite fair. In fact, I think I have commented on more of your recordings than you have of mine. I recorded on 3 or 4 of yours at the beginning (couple of Chopin, Granados, and maybe something else I can't remember) plus that recent video, and this is really only the second time you have ever commented on mine (first was the first Chopin prelude takes, though that was very brief). At least this is how I remember it.


Some of that is true - I don't like listening to whole sonatas or more than two or three files at a time. But when I do, I of course not only listen and comment, but then I get to spend precious personal time updating the site. I am sometimes overwhelmed and at times, I put up members' recordings without commenting - I just check that the file plays - that it ends correctly and stuff like that and if other members comment favorably enough, then I put it up. It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:24 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
I am sometimes overwhelmed and at times, I put up members' recordings without commenting - I just check that the file plays - that it ends correctly and stuff like that and if other members comment favorably enough, then I put it up.

Same here, I've long stopped trying to listen to all and everything that is submitted here, and don't take the time for everybody to follow with score and spell out the fine details. In many cases, a sanity check and some general comments will have to do.

pianolady wrote:
It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

I am quite sure that people sometimes feel obliged to listen to, or even praise, our recordings just because we're the admins. I would rather not have it like that... but maybe a token comment is better than none at all.

As for the "I won't comment on your recordings if you don't comment on mine" game is not one I really like to play. But it is only natural that it happens that way sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Quote:
Oh don't start being all reasonable about it now. You're no fun anymore


Well at least I may help start some controversy. Maybe it's just me, but I think there's too much agreement in the world.

Quote:
I'll put them up tonight and be done with this.


Thanks, though I may need to re-upload the first 8.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:06 pm 
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They're up

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Hi Joe,

If it was simply an oversight, I can understand that and accept your apology.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:34 pm 
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techneut wrote:
pianolady wrote:
It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

I am quite sure that people sometimes feel obliged to listen to, or even praise, our recordings just because we're the admins. I would rather not have it like that... but maybe a token comment is better than none at all.

Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future, but usually you can handle whatever I say, which is why I comment on your recordings most often these days. I think it's because your personality is such that it doesn't bother you when I tell you what is on my mind. (Just like it doesn't bother me when you tell me what is on your mind.) And if you disagree with something I say you can blow it off and not get upset about it. Other than that I generally listen to the Chopin recordings, and sometimes Bach. Every now and then something different.

Joe, if you'd like to criticize my recordings, I put up some really awful ones from my senior recital on General - so feel free. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:13 am 
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Quote:
Joe, if you'd like to criticize my recordings, I put up some really awful ones from my senior recital on General - so feel free.


Well I actually had googled you and found that recital on the Internet already. :oops: :P Of course I would never retaliate, so I didn't want to mention it. If you'd like to know, I listened to the Ocean and Winter Wind. Not the worst, and the slips don't bother me in a live performance, but I do think you need to do considerable work on technique still to really be able to play these pieces well since many of the notes were muddled in pedal and uneven. I know you don't like Czerny, but I think the Chopin etudes do require a bit more preparatory work. Just my limited opinion of course. I would be glad to do a more detailed critique of something if you really ever wanted that.

That said, I apologize for being huffy before, and after considering further your remark on prelude 8, I think you make a good point -- some of the pauses probably are a little long. I don't want it to be totally even to bring out the agitato idea, but it probably shouldn't be too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:24 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Not the worst, and the slips don't bother me in a live performance, but I do think you need to do considerable work on technique still to really be able to play these pieces well since many of the notes were muddled in pedal and uneven.

Agreed.

Quote:
I know you don't like Czerny, but I think the Chopin etudes do require a bit more preparatory work.

Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).

Quote:
That said, I apologize for being huffy before, and after considering further your remark on prelude 8, I think you make a good point -- some of the pauses probably are a little long. I don't want it to be totally even to bring out the agitato idea, but it probably shouldn't be too much.

Like I said, no sweat. I was reluctant to comment mostly because we don't know each other and I feared it would come off as random to you. As for the agitato, I think it takes care of itself in the polyrhythm, with some tasteful rubato (though let's not debate about that again :lol:). In this one the melody is what holds it all together (kinda like 25/1 in that sense).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:45 am 
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Quote:
Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).


I should have said, too, that IMHO the Chopin etudes in a way are the most difficult pieces in the entire standard literature. If you can play those, you can play anything. Even the Lizzt Paganinis and Transcendentals pale in comparison IMO. Have you checked out Moscheles' etudes, Op. 70? Chopin often used those as preparatory work for his own etudes (I think Chopin also liked Moscheles' playing, which is rarity :P ) Regarding practice of the Chopin etudes themselves, do you ever use Cortot's preparatory work for them? IMO absolutely wonderful exercises, rhythmic patterns, etc.

I love Bach too. Actually funny that the only other time I really got heated about criticism was regarding the Bach WTC (you may remember that -- you were involved there too :oops: :P ). I think Bach and Chopin tend to do that to me; I agree with you that they're the pinnacle for piano (though neither one is my favorite composer), and one always thus wants to play them perfectly even though it's especially impossible with their music.

Quote:
As for the agitato, I think it takes care of itself in the polyrhythm, with some tasteful rubato
. True, my LH triplet should probably be more pronounced to help fix that too. I know both Chopin and Liszt insisted that be clear in their teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:03 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).


I should have said, too, that IMHO the Chopin etudes in a way are the most difficult pieces in the entire standard literature.

I'm working on the most difficult of them, but I'm still of the opinion that many of the preludes are just as difficult. I think people often make the mistake of thinking that the preludes are in general easier, just because there are more easy preludes than easy etudes. The most difficult preludes are right up there with the most difficult etudes, even when they are shorter.

Quote:
If you can play those, you can play anything.

One day. :lol:

Quote:
Have you checked out Moscheles' etudes, Op. 70? Chopin often used those as preparatory work for his own etudes (I think Chopin also liked Moscheles' playing, which is rarity :P ) Regarding practice of the Chopin etudes themselves, do you ever use Cortot's preparatory work for them? IMO absolutely wonderful exercises, rhythmic patterns, etc.

Moscheles, I don't care for much, though I understand why Chopin liked him better than certain other contemporaries. Alfie tried to talk me into doing Cortot's preparatory exercises, but I feel the same way about those as I do about Czerny. I do have the Cortot edition, though, and I find that his fingering fits with my ideas much better than any other editor. Mikuli's fingerings are often quite strange, and the sort of thing I doubt Chopin would have let him get away with in lessons (for example, on 10/2, the E major passage with the long sustained octave in the bass, Mikuli fingers it 4-5-4-5 etc. while Cortot fingers it 4-5-3-5 etc....and it turns out, Chopin wrote the latter fingering in himself).

Quote:
I love Bach too. Actually funny that the only other time I really got heated about criticism was regarding the Bach WTC (you may remember that -- you were involved there too :oops: :P ).

I do remember it! Only vaguely, so I wasn't sure if I was misremembering (it came to mind after you responded to me and George), but I seemed to remember Chris using one of those adjectives you don't like. You were new-ish then weren't you?

Quote:
I think Bach and Chopin tend to do that to me; I agree with you that they're the pinnacle for piano (though neither one is my favorite composer), and one always thus wants to play them perfectly even though it's especially impossible with their music.

I find their technique to be more instructive and generally applicable than that of other composers. Of course, it helps that they are my favorites too. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:28 am 
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Terez wrote:
Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future


Terez, you are not really a member of PS and so you are not required to comment on members' recordings. But the fact that you sometimes do is I'm sure appreciated by all. If I failed to acknowledge one of your comments, then I apologize; I'm usually careful about things like that. However, why did you not tell something like this to me directly, instead of this silly, immature third-party manner? Are we in 7th grade again here or what? :roll:

That's it from me here - good that you and Joe have kissed and made up. :)

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