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 Post subject: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:15 pm 
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I lost where this was being discussed a bit elsewhere so and am starting a new thread as I wished to add to the discussion.

It has been said that the accompaniment vs melody rubato -- what I am calling Musical Dissociative Disorder -- is something that is best exemplified in the vocal literature, as I presume, a demonstration of melodic freedom of the singer, etc. However, I would have to say that listening to a performance where the accompanist (pianist or conductor) did not in fact accomodate the accompaniment to the singer's interpretation, thereby maintaining the vertical integrity of the composition and limiting rubato to the tempo as a whole, would be looked upon as a poor accompanist indeed. I'm sure many pianists here have good or even extensive accompanying experience (I do), and the fact that no matter how flexible the soloist or conductor (choral works) can be, that the pianist can "follow" is recognized as the achievment of art and skill -- just plain ensemble ability. This all came back to me as I was listening to a Chopin Nocturne performed by violin (melody) and piano (accompaniment) and recognized as I listened that I would be horrified to hear any dissociation of the melodic rhythm from that of the accompaniment in this two-performer version. Why should it be any different if performed just by a pianist? I maintain that such a dissociation is both unmusical and contrary to everything a musician trains by.

Constantin von Sternberg (1852–1924) (c. 1920). "Tempo rubato, and other essays" wrote:
It is amusing to note that even some serious persons express the idea that in tempo rubato "the right hand may use a certain freedom while the left hand must' keep strict time." (See Frederick Niecks' Life of Chopin, II, p. 101.) A nice sort of music would result from such playing ! Something like the singing of a good vocalist accompanied by a poor blockhead who hammers away in strict time without yielding to the singer who, in sheer despair, must renounce all artistic expression.


:)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:30 am 
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Hi Eddy,

I too have accompanied singers and totally agree with your viewpoint. The pianist has to be flexible in order to follow, never lead, the singer. In following the singer, the pianist plays an almost imperceptible nanosecond (figuratively speaking) behind the singer. Too there are those unwritten subtle pauses to enable the singer to take breaths as the song unfolds.

Personally, I've never put much stock in those 18th and 19th century descriptions of rubato whereby the melody flows freely, accelerates then slows to resume the pace while the accompaniment has remained strictly in tempo and meter, as Chopin taught. It would lead to the very disassociation that you describe. In fact, the pianist ought to follow and mirror the singer through any rubato, ad libitum, or a piacere or other subtlety in my opinion. Likewise, in the piano literature, I would assert that it is not just the melody, but rather the whole musical fabric that is affected by rubato. I would argue that playing rubato in this way is more coherent, dramatic, satisfying and convincing, at least in my opinion.

David

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:55 am 
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David,
I appreciate your commenting on this subject. Earlier this evening the thought occured to me that, perhaps, this notion of free melody versus "fixed" accompaniment is one erroneously born in the auditor when listening to several of those passages in Chopin where irregular groupings of notes are accompanied by clearly patterned accompaniment, the impression being that the melody has "done what it liked" with the tempo when the accompaniment has not -- when of course all along, it was just an irregular grouping in the melody. Examples are almost everywhere in his writings, but two examples suffice to illustrate my point: the 4th measure of the "A" material of the "Raindrop" Prelude, Op.28, No. 15, both times but especially in the return of the A section; the 2nd and 3rd full measures of the first Nocturne, Op.9, No.1. I think that someone listening to these for the first time may have had the impression that Chopin's RH was freely singing while the LH was keeping careful time.

Having said all this, I can't deny that Karol Mikuli (his pupil and then teaching assistant) confusingly states the following:
Karol Mikuli wrote:
In keeping time Chopin was infelxible, and many will be surprised to learn that the metronome never left his piano. Even in his oft-decried tempo rubato[,] one hand -- that having the accompaniment-- always played on in strict time, while the other, singing the melody, either hesitating as if undecided, or, with increased animation, anticipating with a kind of impatient vehemence as if in passionate utterances, maintained the freedom of musical expression from the fetters of strict regularity


I really want to give Mikuli the benefit of the doubt ... but struggle to do so. Perhaps all this he's just described was the RH in irregular groupings or fioritura passages? Oh the mystery.

Eddy

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:48 am 
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As I mentioned in the other discussion, this very possibility was mentioned while I was still learning the piano and was associated with Chopin only. The piece I was learning was the Prelude in d (24) The teacher studied at the Paris Conservatoire in the '40s, if this has any bearing on the discussion. To add to this, I never finished that particular prelude and never went any further into the matter and had quite forgotten about it till this came up. I also remember that I was told that Chopin was to be played in strict time and not with the rubato that so many pianists employ. One example of good playing of Chopin that was given to me was by Nelson Freire. We did discuss Arau, but if I remember correctly he was mentioned as paying correctly, which I understand to mean that he played what he saw on the page.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:44 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
It has been said that the accompaniment vs melody rubato -- what I am calling Musical Dissociative Disorder -- is something that is best exemplified in the vocal literature, as I presume, a demonstration of melodic freedom of the singer, etc. However, I would have to say that listening to a performance where the accompanist (pianist or conductor) did not in fact accomodate the accompaniment to the singer's interpretation, thereby maintaining the vertical integrity of the composition and limiting rubato to the tempo as a whole, would be looked upon as a poor accompanist indeed. I'm sure many pianists here have good or even extensive accompanying experience (I do), and the fact that no matter how flexible the soloist or conductor (choral works) can be, that the pianist can "follow" is recognized as the achievment of art and skill -- just plain ensemble ability.

There's a difference between "accomodating the accompaniment to the singer's interpretation" and pedantically following every microscopic nuance of the singer. As a professional accompanist, I want to be sure that I can follow the singer (or instrumentalist) as closely as I want--but it doesn't always mean I should. There are times in music when a "soloist" (I hesitate to use that word, but there isn't a better) wants to be able to push against a firm rhythmic structure without it giving way. If the accompanist is too "sensitive", it can cause the performance as a whole to lack conviction.

To be fair, this sort of rubato is more common in popular music, jazz and musical theatre (especially where the composer has set speech rhythms in a reasonably natural way), and also in the virtuoso violin repertoire, than it is in mainstream lieder or art song.

Since you seem absolutely convinced that this sort of rubato is wrong, it's unlikely that I can persuade you otherwise just by typing a few words. But I can tell you firstly that top professionals occasionally do this deliberately, and secondly that you've probably heard it without being aware of it. (If it's obvious that the pianist isn't following, then they're overdoing it.)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Okay, here's the first two examples I found on YouTube.

Martha Argerich plays Chopin's Mazurka opus 24 no. 2. Pay attention to the section from 0:37 to 0:48 (where Chopin actually writes the word rubato in the score); it's subtle but it's definitely there.

Maria Callas sings the Habanera from Carmen. There are a few examples of rubato in this performance. I think the clearest is at 2:12: she wants to emphasise the text "Il est la", making the last two quavers of the bar late; but if the orchestra were to follow her, it would spoil the Habanera rhythm, so the orchestra keeps strict time here.

There would be plenty more examples out there (it didn't take me too long to find these two), but I'm not going to spend any more time identifying them for you. Just keep your ears and your mind open.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:24 pm 
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Alexander,
Thank you so much for the examples and I weigh most carefully what you offer. I listened to the Chopin VERY HARD, over and over, and I just can't appreciate any dissynchronization between the hands. Maybe if I could slow it down I might be able to detect it. I would love it if you could find something a little easier to appreciate -- a Nocturne perhaps? In fact, I don't think there would even be such a notion as this subject if it were this hard to hear.

Eddy

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:55 pm 
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Quote:
I really want to give Mikuli the benefit of the doubt ... but struggle to do so. Perhaps all this he's just described was the RH in irregular groupings or fioritura passages? Oh the mystery.


I think this is very likely the case. Mikuli's comment on this, and others' echoing of it, is an issue that has long confused me, for it it doesn't seem possible for melodies and harmonies ever not to match up with one another except when it is specifically part of the musical structure. Keeping in mind that playing the piano is largely an illusion anyway (in terms of the listener's appreciation of it), I'd say too that the likelihood is that Chopin was able to create the illusion that his left hand was keeping perfect time (and presumably his auditors not having a metronome handy to check him :) ), probably because his rubato was so perfectly and aptly applied. And indeed, the filigree figurations in nocturnes that are deliberately asynchronous help create that illusion anyway. I think it is really almost a logical impossibility for the two to diverge and sound like anything other than cacophony.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Is it such an absudity that one hand is precisely in time while the other deviates only very slightly? It is not that one is to have the left paying bar 10 while the right plays bar 12! I ask you, if you have this pattern: 5 notes against 6 or 7 against 11, how can you possibly play these if not by taking these infinitesimal liberties? I realise this is not quite rubato, but it does come near. Maybe we should be discussing the amount of rubato.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Quote:
It is not that one is to have the left paying bar 10 while the right plays bar 12! I ask you, if you have this pattern: 5 notes against 6 or 7 against 11, how can you possibly play these if not by taking these infinitesimal liberties? I realise this is not quite rubato, but it does come near.


No, in fact it is not rubato at all. This is simply polyrhythms of one part against another, both of which can be played exactly in time if one wishes (and can hear the polyrhythms against one another). It's probably easier to visualize by thinking of a 2 against 3, which is no different an idea in concept but much easier to count out. Both parts in a two against three are often played exactly in time. Rubato, on the other hand, is literally the idea of stealing time from your overall tempo, then in many cases presumably making it up so that the effect is natural, though the latter is not necessarily a requirement.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Indeed, though 2 against 3 is equal to 4 against 6, which is perfectly divisible.

Anyway, I have never played the way Eddy is protesting against, so...

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:47 pm 
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Quote:
Indeed, though 2 against 3 is equal to 4 against 6, which is perfectly divisible.


Very true, though it might be harder in actuality for the ear to hear a 4 against 6 while playing.

In your initial response, though, you did say 5 against 6, though, which is a different kettle of fish entirely :D In the opening of the B-flat minor nocturne, op. 9 No. 1, I believe there are some weird polyrhythms of like 11 against 6. In such cases, I think it's permissible to break up the righthand figurations by, say, 2-2-2-2-2-1, and when it's played up to tempo no one will notice anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:42 pm 
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Interesting discussion, guys! I was going to add my two cents but keep deleting everything. Too hard to describe my thoughts on rubato, except that it's hard for me to do! Maybe because I'm a stickler for sticking with the rhythm that's on the page. Also, I don't care for players who push and pull things so much - it gets annoying real fast.

Anyway, carry on..... :)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:11 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
Indeed, though 2 against 3 is equal to 4 against 6, which is perfectly divisible.


Very true, though it might be harder in actuality for the ear to hear a 4 against 6 while playing.


I was thinking of this as practice and a sure way of getting 2 against 3 right.

jlr43 wrote:
In your initial response, though, you did say 5 against 6, though, which is a different kettle of fish entirely :D In the opening of the B-flat minor nocturne, op. 9 No. 1, I believe there are some weird polyrhythms of like 11 against 6. In such cases, I think it's permissible to break up the righthand figurations by, say, 2-2-2-2-2-1, and when it's played up to tempo no one will notice anyway.


I suppose I was thinkning of that as a type of rubato and I wonder if this might not be what Chopin is said to have done. I believe that unless one is an African drummer 5 against 6 will never divide evenly.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:14 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Interesting discussion, guys! I was going to add my two cents but keep deleting everything. Too hard to describe my thoughts on rubato, except that it's hard for me to do! Maybe because I'm a stickler for sticking with the rhythm that's on the page. Also, I don't care for players who push and pull things so much - it gets annoying real fast.

Anyway, carry on..... :)


Indeed, Monica. Maybe you might listen to some of the Chopin performances on the site. I listened to one of the Prelude in e... I do not believe there were two notes for the left hand that had the same values.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:41 pm 
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Quote:
Interesting discussion, guys! I was going to add my two cents but keep deleting everything.


Don't be shy, they're probably excellent points, even if you only give us two cents worth of them:P

Quote:
Maybe because I'm a stickler for sticking with the rhythm that's on the page. Also, I don't care for players who push and pull things so much - it gets annoying real fast.


I see your point here, although sometimes it pays to experiment and then you can always go back later and discard or refine upon relistening. A problem I have with the musical establishment these days is the notion that there is ever an ideal performance of a piece, particularly with such a personal issue as rubato. Then it seems as though everyone is listening to everyone else and terrified to try anything new with an aspect like rubato with the overall result that it all starts to sound the same. I think in the end what we ideally want is to hear 50 completely new and individual performances of, e.g., any of the Chopin preludes. That's the interpretive aspect that makes listening to performances interesting.

That said, I agree with you that there are limits and strictures. The key is to find the happy medium of the individual discovering what works for him/her (i.e., what to do with each phrase dynamically, rubato-wise, etc.) without completely distorting the music. And I think it goes without saying that that's extremely difficult.

On that note, I'm still having a devil of a time with it on, as you may remember, preludes 4 and 6 :P The fast ones I have recorded so far still are far from perfect too, but I'm coming to terms with at least some of those interpretively (though the next one on my list, No. 16, still freaking terrifies me :cry: ), but I find these two apparently simple pieces two of the hardest pieces in Chopin's entire oeuvre to get right, at least for my taste. I have yet to hear a performance I'm satisfied with, and I'm sure I'll never be satisfied with mine either. Even Cortot's version that I listened to again recently sounds rather straight-laced, perfunctory, and monotonous to my ears. Ah well, maybe it's just me -- maybe I need to drink more :D . Hopefully I'll at least improve those two somewhat when I re-record them this weekend

Chopin I guess I just find the most difficult of anything to play. Every measure of it is replete with the most wonderful nuances yet at the same time great perils both interpretively and technically for the performer.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:42 pm 
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Rendering any "Musical dissociative disorder" seems a bit stretched, because deviations relating tempo or synchronicity is intentional on part of the pianist, and it is not involuntary, nor pathologic. It's a matter of taste. Synchronicity is mathematical and absolute in written manuscript, but any tempo deviations via rubato really should involve BOTH hands, and not just one hand. Music is cohesive, not dissociative. The only time that I clearly remember playing a dis-synchronous passage, and have it still sound stylistically appropriate, was in Schubert Impromptu Op. 90/4: The beginning pp passage "can" be played with the low A-flat LH immediately preceding the C-flat RH passage. Try it and see for yourselves. (see attachment)

The golden age of Romantic pianists would do this kind of thing more often. But the argument is passe as tastes and conventions have changed over a 100 years. However, these days, regardless of the temptations to stray from what is written, "dissociating" or dis-synchronous playing is the trait of an amateur and not correct in almost all cases.

As in the aforementioned works of Chopin's Op. 9a, and Op. 28/24, the odd numbered rhythmic subdivisions in the RH against a metric LH accompaniment can be determined in most cases by the melodic importance, or how a passage resolves toward the end. Here is a thread where the Chopin Prelude No. 24 was discussed: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4420

Re: Rubato?! Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't. For those who don't use enough of it, their performance is sterile, devoid. For those who use too much, their performance is an emotional blasé mush. We all can hear this. Rubato is like herbs and spices in food - use in trace amounts!

Conclusion:
- Music is cohesive, and not dissociative to the score.
- Synchronicity is mathematical. Fluctuations in tempo (rubato) is subjective and is a matter of taste (or the lack thereof).
- Dis-synchronicity has almost no bearing in music, it's passé at best.
- Ultimately this whole topic is a matter of taste. We/you either like or don't


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:07 am 
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88man wrote:
Rendering any "Musical dissociative disorder" seems a bit stretched, because deviations relating tempo or synchronicity is intentional on part of the pianist, and it is not involuntary, nor pathologic.

Perhaps I should change the "diagnosis" to Munchausen's Musical Dissociative Disorder (MMDD) :D

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:00 am 
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richard66 wrote:
Indeed, Monica. Maybe you might listen to some of the Chopin performances on the site. I listened to one of the Prelude in e... I do not believe there were two notes for the left hand that had the same values.
If I was very serious about this rubato thing, then maybe I'd listen again to some PS recordings. But since I have listened to so many, many, many recordings for PS, I don't really feel like listening to any one of them again! I must be burning out or something regarding listening to piano music. I've even given up my series tickets for solo piano concerts at Chicago's Orchestra Hall and instead purchased a series of Chicago Symphony tickets for the upcoming season. Three times as expensive, but will provide much more variety than hearing the same pianists over and over again.

jlr43 wrote:
Don't be shy, they're probably excellent points, even if you only give us two cents worth of them:P
Well, it's Friday night so I'm a little loopy. But okay here goes...
Rubato - Mostly, I don't like to 'know' that I'm hearing it, nor do I want to 'try' playing it. When I know a piece well enough, and if I'm in the right mood, I can make my RH do rubato easily and it's very natural. Meaning, I'm just letting my current
thoughts/feelings/emotions guide my hands. That is my kind of rubato - it's very simple to do if I don't think about it.

Joe wrote:
Chopin I guess I just find the most difficult of anything to play. Every measure of it is replete with the most wonderful nuances yet at the same time great perils both interpretively and technically for the performer.


Agree with you one hundred percent! I've recently changed my mind about the way I (want to) play some mazurkas based on listening to the likes of Friedman. If I re-record any of my own mazurkas, I think they'd sound a lot different.

88man wrote:
Re: Rubato?! Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't. For those who don't use enough of it, their performance is sterile, devoid. For those who use too much, their performance is an emotional blasé mush. We all can hear this. Rubato is like herbs and spices in food - use in trace amounts!

I like a lot of herbs and spices in my food (except hot pepper). It doesn't seem to do anything to my playing though... :lol: (kidding, George. I know what you mean.. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:53 am 
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Quote:
Meaning, I'm just letting my current
thoughts/feelings/emotions guide my hands. That is my kind of rubato - it's very simple to do if I don't think about it.


Good point, I try to the do the same and be spontaneous. As Hofmann said, "Spontaneity is the soul of art."

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:51 am 
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richard66 wrote:
Maybe you might listen to some of the Chopin performances on the site. I listened to one of the Prelude in e... I do not believe there were two notes for the left hand that had the same values.

Ha yes, many people who are unable to keep a steady pulse pass it off as rubato. It is so dangerous to start out with playing Chopin in a so-called romantic manner, without first having learned to play in time. It seems like all beginning pianists want to play Chopin above all. I was no different but have come to see the error of my ways.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:13 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
Meaning, I'm just letting my current
thoughts/feelings/emotions guide my hands. That is my kind of rubato - it's very simple to do if I don't think about it.


Good point, I try to the do the same and be spontaneous. As Hofmann said, "Spontaneity is the soul of art."


As I think about this again, I realize that yes, it's my right hand that I can direct more freely if I want to. And that's because it's the melody line we're talking about. But what if the melody was in the left hand? Has anyone encountered a piece of music where the left hand is supposed to play with some rubato? I doubt I could ever do that! Also, I am right-handed - but if I were left-handed, I'm not sure I would be able to make my right hand play rubato. But then possibly I would be able to make my left hand do it....You know what I mean? Maybe that's confusing...I think I just confused myself... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:04 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
Meaning, I'm just letting my current
thoughts/feelings/emotions guide my hands. That is my kind of rubato - it's very simple to do if I don't think about it.


Good point, I try to the do the same and be spontaneous. As Hofmann said, "Spontaneity is the soul of art."


As I think about this again, I realize that yes, it's my right hand that I can direct more freely if I want to. And that's because it's the melody line we're talking about. But what if the melody was in the left hand? Has anyone encountered a piece of music where the left hand is supposed to play with some rubato? I doubt I could ever do that! Also, I am right-handed - but if I were left-handed, I'm not sure I would be able to make my right hand play rubato. But then possibly I would be able to make my left hand do it....You know what I mean? Maybe that's confusing...I think I just confused myself... :lol:


This is a very good point to raise because though this is a forum for pianists, our discussion is ultimately about music. Can a melody (RH, LH, soloist, etc.) have a tempo other than that of the accompaniment that it is composed with?

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:27 pm 
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Quote:
But what if the melody was in the left hand? Has anyone encountered a piece of music where the left hand is supposed to play with some rubato?


One possible example I can think of is the middle section of Chopin Impromptu No. 3. It's such an expansive and deep melody in the middle register of the piano.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:02 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
This is a very good point to raise because though this is a forum for pianists, our discussion is ultimately about music. Can a melody (RH, LH, soloist, etc.) have a tempo other than that of the accompaniment that it is composed with?

I don't think so, because in my mind, tempo means the overall speed of the beats in the piece - the whole piece. If the RH was a faster tempo and the LH a slower tempo, then the RH would finish the piece long before the LH gets to the end, right? So rubato is not related to tempo at all - it's just a matter of altering the length of the RH notes, or changing when you drop down on some notes in certain passages. Maybe you guys already said something like this....?

jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
But what if the melody was in the left hand? Has anyone encountered a piece of music where the left hand is supposed to play with some rubato?


One possible example I can think of is the middle section of Chopin Impromptu No. 3. It's such an expansive and deep melody in the middle register of the piano.


Oh yes - I like that one a lot! Been meaning to put it up on my piano but just haven't gotten around to it. Probably won't for a while either. It's such a sweet piece, though! And really I think it should be an etude.

The middle part is definitely a contender for our left-hand melody-possible-rubato piece. However, I think that the rhythm already makes it automatically sound like you're playing rubato so it should be left as is.

Another piece I just thought of is Gershwin's no. 2 Prelude. It is on my piano right now, but earlier I wasn't thinking about rubato. Regarding the middle section where the LH is playing that cool little jazzy line - in this case, for sure! we wouldn't want our LH to mess around at all with rubato. That would totally ruin the music.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Quote:
musical-md wrote:
This is a very good point to raise because though this is a forum for pianists, our discussion is ultimately about music. Can a melody (RH, LH, soloist, etc.) have a tempo other than that of the accompaniment that it is composed with?

Pianolady replied:
I don't think so, because in my mind, tempo means the overall speed of the beats in the piece - the whole piece. If the RH was a faster tempo and the LH a slower tempo, then the RH would finish the piece long before the LH gets to the end, right? So rubato is not related to tempo at all - it's just a matter of altering the length of the RH notes, or changing when you drop down on some notes in certain passages. Maybe you guys already said something like this....?
I'm just one bit confused Monica. Does your "I don't think so" mean that you don't see a melody moving slightly ahead or behind of the accompaniment temporarily (not for any extended passages)? Then we are in agreement. But then you cite some music that is good for "melody-rubato," which is back to melody having fluctuation in tempo that the accompaniment does not have. Have you ever tried to play a melody faster or slower than its accompaniment for just short, limited passages? Have you ever heard anyone play in such a manner? I have never heard it (knowingly) and have never tried to execute it. I have also never read anything in a score or a text that recommended it's application in a particular spot, whether piano or orchestral literature. When I think of orchestral works that make use of goodly amounts of rubato, I think of Berlioz and the post-Romantics like Strauss and Mahler, but can't concieve of how such an idea as this thread is about could even be conveyed by the conductor. I really think this notion was born in Chopin's penchant for irregular groupings and their perception by auditors.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Sorry, Eddy. I'll try explaining my ideas again differently...

I can see a melody moving slightly ahead or behind the accompaniment but it's got nothing to do with tempo. I don't understand when some people call it tempo rubato, because like I said before, it's not the tempo that is changing at all. If you take one measure and you make the RH move ahead of or drag behind the accompaniment, you still have to make it so that both hands get to the 1st beat of the next measure at the same time, so you didn't change any tempo.

And no, those two pieces, Joe's Chopin Impromptu and my Gershwin Prelude are pieces that I was wondering about - whether there is such a piece where the LH may be instructed to play rubato. I can't see that happening, but maybe there is such a piece? That's what I was talking about.

Well....one thing for sure: Rubato is not only hard to play, but hard to talk about! :wink: :)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Monica wrote:
Well....one thing for sure: Rubato is not only hard to play, but hard to talk about! :wink: :)

I find it a lot easier to talk about than to play, but I think that's mostly because my technique is bad. Talking about it helps me learn how to get better, though. (I have learned a great deal from PS about technique over the years.) I know what you mean about 'tempo rubato' but I think I addressed that in the longpost below which I had written before you posted again (sorry for the length...I've been distracted the past week and just got here), and it just so happens to be underneath my response to your other post. In short, what I said is that tempo=time, and rubato=stolen. Time is stolen (or borrowed), but theoretically it all adds up...because, as George said, it's a cohesive whole. With hands-together rubato, the time is stolen by one part of the piece from the other, and this is only reflected in an abstract way, if you happen to have a sense for that sort of thing. With hands-together rubato, the melodic hand steals time in one part of the phrase from another part of the phrase, or perhaps from the next phrase, and the accompaniment hands keeps on trucking because it's all going to add up anyway. In this case, it's less abstract because the accompaniment hand demonstrates the tempo - the fact that it all adds up in the end - in such a way that the listener will most likely be conscious of it.

techneut wrote:
...many people who are unable to keep a steady pulse pass it off as rubato.

Many people use it in the most difficult passages, too. You can see Ashkenazy doing this all the time in his complete Chopin recordings. It's not because he's not technically adept - I don't think I've ever heard anyone play the b-flat minor sonata as fast as he does (not in the complete recordings, but another recording) - but because he spent almost no time on most of the pieces. To the non-pianist, it might even sound musically appropriate...but the pianist (especially the pianist who has played these pieces) knows he's cheating.

Chris wrote:
It is so dangerous to start out with playing Chopin in a so-called romantic manner, without first having learned to play in time. It seems like all beginning pianists want to play Chopin above all. I was no different but have come to see the error of my ways.

A lot of people forget that Chopin was an amateur. He never had a piano teacher. Even his most difficult pieces are 'easy' in the sense that he only wrote what came naturally to his hand. The fact that everything came naturally to him (and the fact that he liked to challenge himself) means that it's still some of the most difficult music for piano, but it's easy to see why most people start with Chopin, and why most young pianists find Bach counterintuitive in comparison.

pianolady wrote:
I realize that yes, it's my right hand that I can direct more freely if I want to. And that's because it's the melody line we're talking about. But what if the melody was in the left hand? Has anyone encountered a piece of music where the left hand is supposed to play with some rubato? I doubt I could ever do that!

Sure you could, and I think you have. A good example is Chopin 25/7. A totally different but still nice example is 10/12. As I've said before, I hate that one when it's played straight...and yet, it suffers from a loss of pulse. As someone mentioned earlier, it's not as if we're talking about metronomic tempo anyway. A healthy pulse is regular, not metronomic. Without the regular pulse, then syncopations and the like lose their meaning completely, but in the operatic type of melodic (usually RH) writing that Chopin is known for, the accompaniment hand can keep the pulse and still allow much room for melodic freedom, and with that freedom, meaning is only added, rather than lost.

The most important point is that rubato is 'stolen' or 'borrowed' time. One part of the piece steals time from another - or on a smaller scale, one part of the melodic phrase steals time from another part of the phrase, so that it all adds up. Kallberg has talked some about these two types of rubato - the 'hands together' and the 'hands separate' types (in addition to the mazurka type), but generally Chopin preferred that the performer not insert ritardandos or accelerandos unless they were written in the score - the slowing down and speeding up of the hands-together rubato should never venture very far from the regular pulse. As Chopin said, it takes you more or less the same amount of time to play the piece as you would have with the metronome. If you speed up Here, then chances are he wrote the music so that it makes sense to slow down There, etc.

Someone mentioned polyrhythm earlier. I also mentioned this on Rich's nocturne thread in the AR. It's not rubato, but it can serve as an exercise in how to play hands-separate rubato because it teaches independence of the hands. Sometimes polyrhythm breaks up in simple proportions, like 2 against 3, and therefore the pianist generally learns to think of it as an exact science. 3 against 4 is a little bit tricker, and so on. Eventually you have to learn to think by the larger beat that encompasses both sets, and play each hand independently against that beat. I like the TN F minor nocturne for this because rubato is appropriate in it. Chris might say that's because I like to cheat...but I can do 3 against 4 exact. I don't think that is what Chopin is trying to teach people with this etude. I think he is trying to teach people how to play his music the way he played it. If it's contrived, it's not going to be good, but maybe if we make the attempt it will get easier for us as time goes on.

I had this conversation with Alfie in email some time ago, and he provided some recordings of Mikuli's students to demonstrate that this 'school' of piano playing is extinct (as if to say, 'if it ever existed'). In a way, I see what he was getting at - playing with discipline and freedom at the same time is immensely difficult, and I really doubt Mikuli was any good at it. Most agree that Princess Czartoryska and some of the other talented females were most true to their master's style, along with Karl Flitsch (who unfortunately didn't last long). So why should Mikuli's students have carried on the tradition? As was demonstrated in the Chopin etudes thread on the Repertoire forum (?) pianists tend to see piano technique in this way, as a school of thought that must be passed down from teacher to student...but in practice that's probably an unproductive way of looking at it. All of us who play Chopin are students of Chopin. No one living can tell us how he played, and the accounts from the past are only useful to an extent.

88man wrote:
Rendering any "Musical dissociative disorder" seems a bit stretched, because deviations relating tempo or synchronicity is intentional on part of the pianist, and it is not involuntary, nor pathologic. It's a matter of taste. Synchronicity is mathematical and absolute in written manuscript, but any tempo deviations via rubato really should involve BOTH hands, and not just one hand.

This, I disagree with, mostly because I think the pulse is often broken by this type of rubato. I think people use it often because it is by and far the easiest way to execute rubato in Chopin's music, and Chopin's music sounds awful without it (even the most mechanical of the etudes). But I also think that Chopin's music suffers from a loss of pulse, if not so much as from a lack of rubato.

George wrote:
Music is cohesive, not dissociative.

In general, this is true, but that doesn't meant that dissociative elements cannot be effective within the cohesive whole. Undoubtedly, it depends on the talent and skill of the interpreter...and that of the composer, of course.

George wrote:
The golden age of Romantic pianists would do this kind of thing more often. But the argument is passe as tastes and conventions have changed over a 100 years. However, these days, regardless of the temptations to stray from what is written, "dissociating" or dis-synchronous playing is the trait of an amateur and not correct in almost all cases.

If the music suffers from an amateur class performance, then it's probably not best to judge the value of this type of rubato from this type of performance. By all accounts, Chopin was unparalleled in his pianism, though some criticized his amateurish approach. Notably Czerny. :lol: Later in his life, when he wished he could make a living as a concert pianist, he only half-regretted his refusal to make a machine out of himself in his youth in order to pull it off. Probably not even half.

One thing that I do too often, and that many do too often, is the delay of the RH note when it's obviously intended to be in sync with the LH, such as on a downbeat or another strong beat. Chopin hated that, not because it's never appropriate, but because it's so easy for we, the amateurs, to overuse it. When we overuse the expressive device, it loses its meaning. I have a tendency to do this more when 1) I'm tired/distracted/stressed, or 2) I'm playing the piece faster than I should, and therefore my grip on the piece is less secure.

In conclusion...it's easy to see why Brendel said that Chopin requires specialization more than any other composer. It's not that the technique requires specialization, exactly. The interpretation requires specialization. Brendel knew that, and he chose to give up on Chopin, probably not because he didn't get into it, but because he had the choice of 1) playing nothing but Chopin all the time, or 2) playing other stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:15 am 
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Terez wrote:
A lot of people forget that Chopin was an amateur. He never had a piano teacher.

I've never heard of this. I was sure he spent a few years having lessons with Zywny.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:33 am 
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Terez,
Your post above was most interesting. Regarding the learned stylistic habit of the slight dissynchrony on the down beat between hands (usually RH just after the LH), the first time I played that at my first serious teacher's house, she said "Eso es picúo" and I was immediately forbidden to ever do it again! The word is negative in connotation and "refers to cheap, sentimental and superficial substitues for true aesthetic phenomenon." <New art of Cuba By Luis Camnitzer, pg.18> I understand all of your explanation regarding rubato, but I would still be interested to hear a passage blantantly played this way. My only retort to you is that for me, Chopin's "difficult" works are difficult, not easy, but they are, however, idiomatic for the piano.
Eddy

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:27 am 
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hanysz wrote:
Terez wrote:
A lot of people forget that Chopin was an amateur. He never had a piano teacher.

I've never heard of this. I was sure he spent a few years having lessons with Zywny.

And I did not know that the definition of "amateur" was one who had had no teacher. Having had a teacher then I by definition am a concert pianist! Ha! I never thought I would have made it; change the definition and change the result:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:15 pm 
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richard wrote:
hanysz wrote:
Terez wrote:
A lot of people forget that Chopin was an amateur. He never had a piano teacher.

I've never heard of this. I was sure he spent a few years having lessons with Zywny.

And I did not know that the definition of "amateur" was one who had had no teacher. Having had a teacher then I by definition am a concert pianist! Ha! I never thought I would have made it; change the definition and change the result:lol:


:lol: Me too! :lol:

Chopin did have many lessons from Zywny and then went to the Warsaw Conservatory to study with Elsner. Not sure what kind of 'degree' he received, and maybe he was not paid to perform when he was in his youth playing at dinner parties of the Polish aristocracy. But he certainly was a paid performer later when he was Paris (playing to packed audiences), so coupled with that and selling his compositions plus being a highly sought-after teacher, I think it's pretty far-fetched to call Chopin an amateur. If that's the case, then you might as well call Mozart an amateur too. :roll: :? :)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:39 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
richard wrote:
hanysz wrote:
Terez wrote:
A lot of people forget that Chopin was an amateur. He never had a piano teacher.

I've never heard of this. I was sure he spent a few years having lessons with Zywny.

And I did not know that the definition of "amateur" was one who had had no teacher. Having had a teacher then I by definition am a concert pianist! Ha! I never thought I would have made it; change the definition and change the result:lol:


:lol: Me too! :lol:

Chopin did have many lessons from Zywny and then went to the Warsaw Conservatory to study with Elsner. Not sure what kind of 'degree' he received, and maybe he was not paid to perform when he was in his youth playing at dinner parties of the Polish aristocracy. But he certainly was a paid performer later when he was Paris (playing to packed audiences), so coupled with that and selling his compositions plus being a highly sought-after teacher, I think it's pretty far-fetched to call Chopin an amateur. If that's the case, then you might as well call Mozart an amateur too. :roll: :? :)


Let us give a concert, you and I: you do the playing and I will turn th pages. Just remember to nod at the right moments so I do not get lost! :D

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:53 pm 
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Now, seriously, I was reflecting the other night, 3am philosophy and I thought thus:

Rubato is when you slacken or speed tempo here and there, making up for it later on. But if both hands do the same slackening or speeding, what need is there to compensate further on? After all, if one sets off alone to go to the station it makes no difference how fast or slow you go; it is only when you are in two. If two set out separately to go to the station and bith must arrive together and if one goes faster than the other, why, yes, he must slow down further onb, or else he will arrive earlier.

If I may give a poor example, I submitted a recording to the site, Camellieri it was, where there is a slow waltz rhythm thoughout the piece, exepting for the last 3 or 4 bars. There is a ritardando there too, but otherwise, I felt the rhythm had to keep steady or else the piece did not hold together. Of course that mean the meledy came out square. I have the impression (I might be very wrong, of course) that I might have applied this type of rubato, always within the beat, so that not all quavers or semi- or demisemiquavers are precisely divided over the crotchets, but that some might be slighly longer than others, in a way that time is precise while the melody still sings.

Might this be rubato to you?

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:50 pm 
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88man wrote:
Rendering any "Musical dissociative disorder" seems a bit stretched, because deviations relating tempo or synchronicity is intentional on part of the pianist, and it is not involuntary, nor pathologic. It's a matter of taste. Synchronicity is mathematical and absolute in written manuscript, but any tempo deviations via rubato really should involve BOTH hands, and not just one hand.
Terez wrote:
This, I disagree with, mostly because I think the pulse is often broken by this type of rubato. I think people use it often because it is by and far the easiest way to execute rubato in Chopin's music, and Chopin's music sounds awful without it (even the most mechanical of the etudes). But I also think that Chopin's music suffers from a loss of pulse, if not so much as from a lack of rubato.

Not really. Pulse is a subjective term. Pulse doesn't have to be broken in the presence of rubato, as music is a dynamic process that can embrace change within the same piece. Even a driving pulse needs a break from time to time to add a degree of contrast, hence different themes, etc. In proper use of rubato, it's the tempo that is interrupted, not the rhythm. In other words the music may slow down, but the elements which define rhythm remain intact - accents, meter, etc. Our sense of pulse is primarily driven by rhythm, so our perception of pulse within a piece doesn't suffer.

Terez wrote:
A lot of people forget that Chopin was an amateur. He never had a piano teacher. Even his most difficult pieces are 'easy' in the sense that he only wrote what came naturally to his hand.

Stated bluntly, but marginally true. He really didn't have the opportunity to delve deeply into the formal tools of composition. This can be seen with the use of awkward enharmonics within a given key signature. Even Józef Elsner allowed a free reign on composition during the "formal years" from 1826-29. Making up for any inadequacies, however, his understanding of form, style, musical creativity equaled or transcended his contemporaries.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:14 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
After all, if one sets off alone to go to the station it makes no difference how fast or slow you go;

Unless it makes you miss your train :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:59 am 
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I thought I might see (finally) what the Harvard Dictionary of Music (2nd Ed) has to say on the subject:
Definition: "An elastic, flexible tempo involving slight accelerandos and ritardandos that alternate according to the requirements of musical expression."

Then it identifies "two types of rubato, one that affects the melody only and another that affects the whole musical texture. The first type has become well known through its use in jazz. However it was also used during the second half of the 18th century. Tosi (1723), Quantz (1752), K.P.E. Bach (1753), Leopold Mozart (1756), and D.G. Turk (1789) maintain that rubato applies only to the melody and should not affect the accompaniment. Chopin is reported to have taught this type of rubato, which may extend over several measures, after which the melodic and harmonic accents should again coincide."
<Material on the 2nd type skipped.>

Definition No.2: "About 1800 the term "rubato" was used to indicate modifications of dynamics rather than tempo, e.g., accents on normally weak beats, such as the second and forth in a 4/4 measure. It is possible that Chopin meant this manner of performance when he prescribed 'rubato' in his compositions, since he used the term almost exclusively in mazurkas or melodies in mazurka style (e.g.. F-Minor Concerto, last movement). The strict rhythm of the mazurka would seem to exclude modifications of tempo yet readily admits unexpected accents on the second or third beat."

Then I took a peek at Thurston Dart's The Interpretation of Music, 1954. Melody rubato is mentioned again in reference to Chopin. Beyond that, it is evident that the concept of flexible time has been around for some time as both Caccini, in his preface (1602) to his monodies Dart writes "explains in great detail the exact ways in which rubato, dynamics and phrasing should be used in his music in order to enhance its effects;" and Frescobaldi in the Preface to his first book of Toccatas (1614) writes "Do not keep strict time throughout but, as in modern madrigals, use here a slow tempo, here a fast one, and here one that, as it were, hangs in the air, always in accordance with the expression and meaning of the words," -- plainly demonstrates that the idea has been formaly around for quite some time.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:49 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Definition No.2: "About 1800 the term "rubato" was used to indicate modifications of dynamics rather than tempo, e.g., accents on normally weak beats, such as the second and forth in a 4/4 measure. It is possible that Chopin meant this manner of performance when he prescribed 'rubato' in his compositions, since he used the term almost exclusively in mazurkas or melodies in mazurka style (e.g.. F-Minor Concerto, last movement). The strict rhythm of the mazurka would seem to exclude modifications of tempo yet readily admits unexpected accents on the second or third beat."
Now, that is probably the most interesting thing I've heard in a long time and makes total sense to me regarding Chopin. Great information, Eddy!! :)


@Richard - turning pages is not easy, either! Just look at this article I posted awhile back:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1262

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:24 am 
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techneut wrote:
richard66 wrote:
After all, if one sets off alone to go to the station it makes no difference how fast or slow you go;

Unless it makes you miss your train :mrgreen:


Yes, but at least both miss the train! Ifd one goes faster and reaches the station on time and the other does not... :) I have seen it happen!

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:28 am 
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pianolady wrote:
musical-md wrote:
@Richard - turning pages is not easy, either! Just look at this article I posted awhile back:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1262

:lol:

Come to think of it, we shall need to call the concert off: I am left-handed. :)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:36 am 
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musical-md wrote:
I thought I might see (finally) what the Harvard Dictionary of Music (2nd Ed) has to say on the subject:
Definition: "An elastic, flexible tempo involving slight accelerandos and ritardandos that alternate according to the requirements of musical expression."

Then it identifies "two types of rubato, one that affects the melody only and another that affects the whole musical texture. The first type has become well known through its use in jazz. However it was also used during the second half of the 18th century. Tosi (1723), Quantz (1752), K.P.E. Bach (1753), Leopold Mozart (1756), and D.G. Turk (1789) maintain that rubato applies only to the melody and should not affect the accompaniment. Chopin is reported to have taught this type of rubato, which may extend over several measures, after which the melodic and harmonic accents should again coincide."
<Material on the 2nd type skipped.>

Definition No.2: "About 1800 the term "rubato" was used to indicate modifications of dynamics rather than tempo, e.g., accents on normally weak beats, such as the second and forth in a 4/4 measure. It is possible that Chopin meant this manner of performance when he prescribed 'rubato' in his compositions, since he used the term almost exclusively in mazurkas or melodies in mazurka style (e.g.. F-Minor Concerto, last movement). The strict rhythm of the mazurka would seem to exclude modifications of tempo yet readily admits unexpected accents on the second or third beat."

Then I took a peek at Thurston Dart's The Interpretation of Music, 1954. Melody rubato is mentioned again in reference to Chopin. Beyond that, it is evident that the concept of flexible time has been around for some time as both Caccini, in his preface (1602) to his monodies Dart writes "explains in great detail the exact ways in which rubato, dynamics and phrasing should be used in his music in order to enhance its effects;" and Frescobaldi in the Preface to his first book of Toccatas (1614) writes "Do not keep strict time throughout but, as in modern madrigals, use here a slow tempo, here a fast one, and here one that, as it were, hangs in the air, always in accordance with the expression and meaning of the words," -- plainly demonstrates that the idea has been formaly around for quite some time.


It just goes to show that all that the wisecracks who affirm Chopin wanted his works to be played as if meter were nonexistent is twaddle. The more I see of "authentic performance" the more I realise this means no more than "performance taking into account all modern prejudices" and that "authentic performances of the 2010s are more authentic than authentic performances of the 1950s."

Thank you Eddy for looking this up!

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:29 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
Terez wrote:
A lot of people forget that Chopin was an amateur. He never had a piano teacher.

I've never heard of this. I was sure he spent a few years having lessons with Zywny.

Indeed, but Żynwy was not a pianist, and neither was Elsner. Żynwy had some facility with piano, but he was a violinist, and he mostly guided Chopin by giving him music to play. All accounts agree that little Chopin came up with his own fingerings, and Żynwy didn't object.

For the curious, there's a section in Eigeldinger's 'Chopin: Pianist and Teacher' on what Chopin's students had to say about Chopin's rubato - how he played, and how he taught.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:48 pm 
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It is a battle that cannot be won.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Battle?

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Well, I think this has been a fine discussion [thus far]! It was certainly stimulating to me. I think that we can all agree on certain principles:
1. Rubato is intrinsic to human-performed music, and will always be a desired characteristic in music.
2. As per No.1, this is one characteristic that results in unique interpretations of works, which is also a desired result in music.
3. As with any other component of aesthetics, there shall always be differing opinions as to what is beautiful and what is not.
4. The pursuit of beauty is fun :D

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:44 pm 
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And a civil discussion at that, which is always a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Battle?

A losing battle

Yes: when one is dealing not with facts which can be proved but with opinions, each of us will in the end remain steadfast.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:20 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
It is a battle that cannot be won.
and
richard66 wrote:
And a civil discussion at that, which is always a good thing.


Hmm, Richard, a little dissocciated are we? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:09 pm 
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My thoughts exactly. :wink: As for facts, most of Chopin's students are in agreement on his feelings about rubato, which is why I referenced Eigeldinger. I could type some of them out if anyone is interested.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:03 pm 
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It might be interesting, yes, to know what his thoughts were on rubato. Just do not make too much trouble for yourself if they are too long.

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