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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:21 am 
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RSPIll wrote:
The requirement of classical music is to get the music out preferably with an eye towards the composer's intentions. The sound is the objective. Which hand or finger plays which note is not a part of the equation. A particular amount of force applied to a key will result in the same sound whether by the R.H., the L.H., the eraser end of a pencil, or a sledge hammer (thought the sledge hammer is more difficult to control).

Scott

Thank you for your kind commenting, Scott. You are right. I just wanted to make fundamental practicing to get a large chord properly before borrowing the thumb from LH :)

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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:30 am 
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RSPIll wrote:
The requirement of classical music is to get the music out preferably with an eye towards the composer's intentions. The sound is the objective. Which hand or finger plays which note is not a part of the equation.

Absolutely :!: Unless something is expressly written as a technical exercise for one hand or another, it doesn't really matter which hand plays what. I find myself doing it more often, i.e. letting the hands help out each other, if it makes it easier or helps to improve the result. Recently I decided to play one of Mozart's many crossed-hand passages without crossing, it went just as well and was much less risky (I do believe Mozart sometimes did these things just to show off). There's never a good reason to make things more difficult than they should be (except again, when it's a technical exercise).

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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:52 am 
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Chris wrote:
I find myself doing it more often, i.e. letting the hands help out each other, if it makes it easier or helps to improve the result.

And it's not just you/us, but also the famous pianists, I guess. As I learned Schumann's concerto, I always found the long descending passages which are described (at least on the Edition Peters) as being performed by LH alone very difficult (like one on the attached pic). But I saw on TV Argerich play those passages also with RH helping LH, I was very surprised. Before then I thought the famous pianists don't need change anything written in the score. But it also may be the case that the score Argerich used to learn that concerto dictates it, since I found later that it is written so on the Schirmer's edition.


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schumann 54.PNG
schumann 54.PNG [ 14.35 KiB | Viewed 1784 times ]

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Hye-Jin Lee
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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Location: Illinois
techneut wrote:
RSPIll wrote:
The requirement of classical music is to get the music out preferably with an eye towards the composer's intentions. The sound is the objective. Which hand or finger plays which note is not a part of the equation.

Absolutely :!: Unless something is expressly written as a technical exercise for one hand or another, it doesn't really matter which hand plays what. I find myself doing it more often, i.e. letting the hands help out each other, if it makes it easier or helps to improve the result. Recently I decided to play one of Mozart's many crossed-hand passages without crossing, it went just as well and was much less risky (I do believe Mozart sometimes did these things just to show off). There's never a good reason to make things more difficult than they should be (except again, when it's a technical exercise).


And we all just love technical exercises. :roll:

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:29 pm 
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I think part of the whole thing about L.H. vs. R.H. comes from our very early lessons. Ask any number of early level students what the bass clef tells us (trying to get them to say that the 4th line is "F") many will answer "left hand." Most of the early level music completely associates L.H. with bass clef and R.H. with treble clef.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:51 pm 
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I come late to this topic, but from my very first lessons I learnt not to see f clef = LH and g clef = RH. Very often the way a score is written does not imply that the hands are distributed this or that way. My main concern is always to make sure the voices are not broken and that finger legato is assured. If this means dividing a voice between the hands, so be it. The aim is to play something well with the minimun risk of going wrong. At present I am practising a piece (4 parts) where at times one of the voices may go: LH LH RH LH RH RH LH and so on. All this to avoid as much as possible the use of the pedal.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:32 am 
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richard66 wrote:
At present I am practising a piece (4 parts) where at times one of the voices may go: LH LH RH LH RH RH LH and so on. All this to avoid as much as possible the use of the pedal.

This is a little dangerous! I used to do similar things frequently, but found that I tended to make too many mistakes in performance. Depending on the piece in question, it's often better to use a simpler fingering plus some discreet pedal.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:17 pm 
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In fact I do not think I do it quite as much as written here! But yes, when I notice too many errors that always come though in the same places...

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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:30 pm 
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I'm actually curious not about your hand width, but the angle between fingers 1 and 5. Both the photos of your hand positions show almost a V-shaped angle made by your thumb and pinky (if you imagine imaginary lines running down the thumb and pinky and meeting in the middle of your hand). To get maximum reach, we want as close to a straight line as possible.

It's hard to tell only seeing the position from the top. Most of us have more reach if we round the hand by lifting the large knuckles slightly. In this position, spreading the fingers increases the angle of fingers 1 and 5 towards a straight line. Again, it's hard to tell from the photos, but I wonder if your hand may be flattened out, so that the large knuckles and palm are almost touching the keys? In that position, spreading the fingers actually causes them to reach up toward the ceiling, which doesn't help with horizontal reach on the keys. That means that with a flat hand, getting fingers 1 and 5 into a straight line is next to impossible. Then, people start pulling their hands toward themselves so that they are playing only the very tips of the keys. This does keep the palm off the keys but it reduces the options for sound quality (as well as the ability to hit black keys.)

In a rounder position the hand really has to be above the keys, not in front of them. You will be making a very long, low archway above the keys, instead of a V in front of them. You may find yourself hitting extra notes as you get used to that. But in the long run you'll develop a wider reach--and the whole white vs. black key issue won't be an issue at all since you'll be working much closer to the black keys.

Good luck! Enjoy the magnificent Brahms!


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 Post subject: Re: Help!! (Brahms op.120-2)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Hi, hreichgott! Thank you very much for your helpful comment. I didn't see it before, and realized that this was posted a long time ago... Sorry.
Yes, you are right. My hands were flat and I could not produce a full sound. I saw the problem, but didn't know how to solve it. So you believe repeated practice in a right hand position will bring me a success... I hope so :)
Thank you for your detailed reply again!

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