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 Post subject: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:08 am 
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Hello everyone! need help here about the second candenza which is ending the climax. how am I suppose to play it? the running down passage should I use the suggested fingerings or not? and, how should I practice it? I appreciate your tips thanks :D


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Location: Brazil
I play the right hand just like the fingerings indication in IMSLP: 4231

In the left hand it's more difficult. I try to do 4231 when possible. Most of the time I do 42424242 or 31313131.


I think a good way to practice it is with different rhythms patterns. Have you ever done something like that? It's usually the ONLY WAY of practicing anything, hehehe. Everybody only says that! The piano teachers should have more creativity! hehe (the fact is that rhythms patterns REALLY WORK!)

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Felipe Sarro


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
I play the RH:
Top Note: 4 on white keys, 3 on black keys, but 5 on f and c (first of two white keys in a row)
Bottom Note: White keys with thumb, black keys with 2

LH:
Top note: Black keys with 2, white keys with thumb
Bottom note: All with 4

Then, what follows next, I play WITHOUT any crossing, thusly:
The d-natural and e-flat (last 8th of first group and 1st 8th of next group) I play with LH:3-2
Continuing upwards, I play the e-flats (first 8th of next two groups) with the LH 2 or 3
Then on the way down, I play the F# and G with LH 3-2. That happens 3 times, with intervening RH: 4,5,2,3,1,2

There. Now I've given away another "trade secret." :D
Good luck!

Edit: I forgot to add: Yes, practice with different rhythms (long -short, short-long, long--tri-pi-let (4 note groups), tri-pi-let--long, etc. AND most importantly, BLOCKED double-notes!

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:14 pm
Posts: 844
Location: Germany
Eddy wrote:
Edit: I forgot to add: Yes, practice with different rhythms (long -short, short-long, long--tri-pi-let (4 note groups), tri-pi-let--long, etc. AND most importantly, BLOCKED double-notes!

Sorry for this maybe stupid-looking question, but what are "blocked double-notes"? I've never learned music in English, so I have no idea :? (I googled, but without success)

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Hye-Jin Lee
"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
hyenal wrote:
Eddy wrote:
Edit: I forgot to add: Yes, practice with different rhythms (long -short, short-long, long--tri-pi-let (4 note groups), tri-pi-let--long, etc. AND most importantly, BLOCKED double-notes!

Sorry for this maybe stupid-looking question, but what are "blocked double-notes"? I've never learned music in English, so I have no idea :? (I googled, but without success)

Hello Hye-Jin,
"Blocked" means played together, i.e. harmonically rather than melodically, for example whole chords instead of arpeggios. Double-notes meaning to play two notes at a time. Therefore, playing 2 notes in the RH and 2 notes in the LH, and working through the passage that way, e.g., start RH with C/E, LH with G/Bb, (chromatically descending V4/3 (2nd inversion V7 chords)).

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:14 pm
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Location: Germany
Thank you very much Eddy. Then you mean that way of practicing (with blocked double notes) doesn't refer to a certain problematic passage from a piece, but to a daily practice? I usually applied the other things (like "short-long") to such passages.
(BTW wenn do you play your recital? Is the preparing going well?)

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Hye-Jin Lee
"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:49 pm 
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Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
hyenal wrote:
Thank you very much Eddy. Then you mean that way of practicing (with blocked double notes) doesn't refer to a certain problematic passage from a piece, but to a daily practice? I usually applied the other things (like "short-long") to such passages.
(BTW wenn do you play your recital? Is the preparing going well?)

Hye-Jin, I mean to the daily practice of problematic passages! :) Hopefully, the study of double-notes (which is advanced) is a part of every (advanced) pianists preparation. Several technical/exercise books will usually introduce the matter and the playing of scales in double-note thirds and 6ths (including the chromatic scale in M3, m3, M6 and m6 intervals) would play a foundational role in the technical development. I know this is not generally pursued by amateurs, but that kind of prior training is what makes this kind of passage very playable (i.e., having already practiced the chromatic scale in M3 (the RH here) and m3 (the LH here)). If you haven't done that kind of work in the past, then it means it will cost more effort (generally a LOT more effort) when you meet it in a work such as this.

Thanks for asking about my preparation. For the first time in my life, I'm preparing BEFORE having a recital date breathing down my neck ... and I LOVE it! Using the grades of preparation that I described in another thread, all of the 1st column (can play with score) is checked for each piece. The second (can play from memory) is partially complete. On some works I'm on to playing at and above performance speed with metronome (I think I will be starting a thread soon about the metronome). Next will be to record in one take (I may get my new recording equipment today as the roads are passable!). I'm anxious to get all the pieces up to that point because then I get to start my NEXT program ... and that excites me!

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:12 am 
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Location: Germany
Quote:
I know this is not generally pursued by amateurs, but that kind of prior training is what makes this kind of passage very playable (i.e., having already practiced the chromatic scale in M3 (the RH here) and m3 (the LH here)). If you haven't done that kind of work in the past, then it means it will cost more effort (generally a LOT more effort) when you meet it in a work such as this.

Oh... :oops: You seem to explain why I encounter so many (mostly the same) technical problems often... Thanks for the tip. I'll keep it on mind.
And so, did you get the recording equipments?

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Hye-Jin Lee
"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:18 pm
Posts: 1037
Double-notes advanced? It was something I was doing after 6 months of lessons. Admittedly I did start late, but I never thought of this as advanced.

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Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
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Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
richard66 wrote:
Double-notes advanced? It was something I was doing after 6 months of lessons. Admittedly I did start late, but I never thought of this as advanced.

Well Richard, everything has its levels, but I would say that scales and arpeggios (mind you with many degrees of difficulty) generally preceed chords and octaves (with many degrees of difficulty) and that difficult double-note exercises and studies are about as difficult as it gets. Have you ever seen the fabulous School of Double-Notes by Moszkowski? It makes me shudder just to think about it again. Anyway this kind of stuff is what makes the Chopin Ballade No.4 that Mark (Marik) played so beautifully such a very difficult piece to play. Any other opinions out there on this subject? I'm curious what others think. Andrew, Andreas, Rochelle, others?


Edit: Oops, I meant Moszkowski, not Moscheles (corrected)

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:18 pm
Posts: 1037
When I was younger my brother started to learn the classical guitar and for over ten years he played every day. I remember him playing scales and other exercises. I do not remember him ever playing a single piece whole: the maximum being half of a Tarrega. He still owns the guitar but I am afraid he no longer plays and I am not sure he ever derived much enjoyment from his playing.

When I took up the piano I asked myself: what do I want? Do I want to become a concert pianist, spend all my day playing exercises and then progressing to the works of Chopin, Liszt, Debussy and so on and finding I must play in concerts and recitals works which got on my nerves? No! I was more modest: I wanted to play the pieces I liked and these did not include works of fiendlish difficulty which I did not particularly enjoy anyway. Give me selected works of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and Schubert and I was happy.

This is all to say that I was not exposed to too many piano etudes. I did some Czerny, some Cramer and Clementi and have worken through some of Chopin's Etudes (op 10 Nos 1, 2, 10 and op 25 Nos 1 and 10) not that I could perform them and I am not too sure I want to anyway. The world is brimming with pianists who are better than I and who are eager to flood the world with virtuoso pieces. I have no desire or indeed capability to compete with them.

Have I missed out? Maybe I have and maybe if I had given my younger years to these, including the Moschelles you mention, I might have been able to play better today or at least I might take less time working on new pieces.

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Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:14 pm
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Location: Germany
Quote:
Have you ever seen the fabulous School of Double-Notes by Moszkowski? It makes me shudder just to think about it again.

Eddy, do you mean Studies in Doublee Notes op.64? I just found it on IMSLP and it looks terrible :? May one start to learn it immediately or does one need some preparations to start with such an advanced etudes?

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Hye-Jin Lee
"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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 Post subject: Re: Liebestraume No. 3 - Need Help
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
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Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
hyenal wrote:
Quote:
Have you ever seen the fabulous School of Double-Notes by Moszkowski? It makes me shudder just to think about it again.

Eddy, do you mean Studies in Doublee Notes op.64? I just found it on IMSLP and it looks terrible :? May one start to learn it immediately or does one need some preparations to start with such an advanced etudes?


Yes. Op.64 is in three parts. The first is the scales (all: including the 3 versions of minor and the chromatic) in double-note thirds and then double-note sixths); the second part is a chapter of exercises in three parts (A. 17 exercises that start in C and modulate chromatically through all the others, B. exercises on the V7 chord that should also be tried in other keys, C. exercises meant to to be studied only in the key written and many of which resmble or feature passages of famous works requiring double-notes [e.g. Chopin etude Op.10 no.3, Chopin Concerto in E minor, Brahms Variations on a theme of Paganini, Schumann Toccata, etc.], and then the 3rd and last part comproses four Grand Etudes (to graduate with!)). This work was concieved to follow another book on scales in single notes.

"Finally, it may be said that this work is intended for highly advanced players." M. Moszkowski (Forward)

Edit: some spelling

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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