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 Post subject: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:07 pm 
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i can't play fast arpeggio very well, especially in white key (for me, it's very hard to play fast arpeggio in C Major, F Major, and G Major)...is there any suggestion for practicing fast arpeggio?


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Chopin wasn't concerned if they were not legato - it's the timing that matters.


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:17 pm 
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but my finger always make a mistake when i reached 3rd octave...


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:44 pm 
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I think it's a memory thing - go slower but also realize for the body the notes are in a very different place three octaves up.


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Practice ff, and equalize the weakest fingers as much as possible by strengthening regimens. That means the 4th and 5th fingers. Keep fingers curved, not curled. For R.H. arpeggios, make sure the wrist is straight with your arm, so no angled wrists, and after you play the thumb, place it under immediately after the note is played, and maintain it there until you play it again. You will see that the thumb will be right on the note as you go C E G C' E' G' C'' etc. This way you can go very fast. Don't skip notes until you play the next note, it will serve to stabilize and give you a point of reference. In other words, don't remove the thumb until you play the 2nd finger; don't remove the 2nd finger until you play the 3rd finger; and don't remove the 3rd finger until you play the thumb on the second octave, etc... This will prevent you from producing hiccups in motion and sound and produce a uniform arpeggio. Simultaneously the hand should move as fast to keep pace with the notes in the direction of motion.

Practice arpeggios with a nickel coin on top of your hand. If the coin falls off, then you're not doing it correctly. Good Luck!

_________________
"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:30 pm 
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88man wrote:
and don't remove the 3rd finger until you play the thumb on the second octave, etc...
Chopin is saying don't worry about that, just get the movements smooth.


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:32 pm 
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88man:
Quote:
... and don't remove the 3rd finger until you play the thumb on the second octave, etc...

keyboarclass:
Quote:
Chopin is saying don't worry about that, just get the movements smooth.
That's a contradiction for almost all hands except for Chopin who had the most supple of fingers. The poster said that he/she can't predictably play arpeggios fast on white keys beyond the 2nd octave. That leads me to indicate a consistency issue in technique because the stretch is more wider on all white keys, it's more difficult to play an arpeggio more smoothly.

If you don't worry about holding the 3rd finger at all, or remove the 3rd finger too soon, not only you'll get a hiccup, but you'll miss the note because your hand is already in motion, and you might slide pass the note and hit a crack in a multi-octave passage. There is no way to play an arpeggio fast, smoothly, and consistently, both dynamically and rhythmically, if one doesn't try to at least "think legato" in execution. And if you hop from the 3rd to the 1st finger, one is unintentionally liable to play an triplet of ascending chord triads; Even worse, to get a quartet of 16th notes rhythmically now becomes more difficult.

Surely one's not going to hold the 3rd finger in position as long as the 1st or 2nd finger, but just enough to have the thumb either on or very near the position of the right note; Treat it like a pivot without rotation to stabilize the hand in position to transition the 3rd finger to the thumb. This all happens very fast and what I am saying is in super slow-motion.

Every millimeter in motion will make a difference, and I believe the secret lies in the pulling the thumb under the fingers as much as possible toward the intended note without disrupting the transition between the notes both dynamically and rhythmically.

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"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:29 pm 
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That seems fair enough. According to Mikuli 'evenness of scales (arpeggios)...above all on a constant sideways movement of the hands...continuous and even-flowing rather than in steps,'


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:37 pm 
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Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
Listen to 88man - he plays arpeggios beautifully. :lol: As is evidenced by his recording of this waltz.

Edited because I gave the wrong link. :oops:

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Last edited by Terez on Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Listen to 88man - he plays arpeggios beautifully. :lol: As is evidenced by his recording of this waltz.

Huh :?
So that's where you hang around :P

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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
Listen to 88man - he plays arpeggios beautifully. :lol: As is evidenced by his recording of this waltz.

Huh :?
So that's where you hang around :P

lol, wat? I just listened to George's Chopin (cause you know I hardly listen to anything else but Bach) for the first time about a week ago when he introduced himself to me. Because you never quite know a pianist until you hear them play. :lol:

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:18 pm 
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Posts: 45
Terez wrote:
techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
Listen to 88man - he plays arpeggios beautifully. :lol: As is evidenced by his recording of this waltz.

Huh :?
So that's where you hang around :P

lol, wat? I just listened to George's Chopin (cause you know I hardly listen to anything else but Bach) for the first time about a week ago when he introduced himself to me. Because you never quite know a pianist until you hear them play. :lol:


I found this "Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead."

But... no waltz. x D


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:56 pm 
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Location: Netherlands
Haha indeed, no waltzes to be found there :P

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:59 pm 
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Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
ahhh, wrong link. :D I will fix it. Not that I'm really hiding at Theoryland; I even got Nathan to join, not that he posted much. He named his kids after WoT characters (the littlest is named Moiraine, I do believe). :wink: I think we had a conversation about it on the General forum once.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 10:37 pm
Posts: 45
Terez wrote:
Listen to 88man - he plays arpeggios beautifully. :lol: As is evidenced by his recording of this waltz.

Edited because I gave the wrong link. :oops:


:shock:

Wonderful recording of that waltz, it makes me want to go practice mine a LOT more. I know you're supposed to play the first arpeggio slowly, and then the following two very quickly(I think it's the difference between triplets and 16ths?), but his hand teleported up 2 octaves or something.

Err, yeah. Listen to 88man on the arpeggio thing :P


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:44 am 
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BrokenFingers wrote:
Terez wrote:
I know you're supposed to play the first arpeggio slowly, and then the following two very quickly(I think it's the difference between triplets and 16ths?), but his hand teleported up 2 octaves or something.

:lol: Nice description. But this is something Chopin likes to do - he writes a run or an arpeggio that is played in tempo, but comes across as if there is an accelerando. George does it very nicely, but it is written to feel very natural to the hand with the right approach (relaxation as opposed to tension, or the typical OH NO IT'S A FIDDLY BIT thing that pops up even in the easiest Chopin pieces). The difference between 3 to the beat and 5 to the beat is subtle in this context but perceptible. And with the rubato, it need not be overly precise; in fact, it should not be.

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:43 am 
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Location: Boston
Thank you Terez, Brokenfingers, Chris, and Keyboarclass for a good discussion and kind praises, and even a undeserved reference to Star Trek. Perhaps, the simplicity of the waltz had an unusual flavor given my nostalgic intentions, but it's not like I am playing Chopin Etudes these days... :wink:

Piano21, let us know if you succeed with your arpeggios...

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"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:40 am 
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88man wrote:
Thank you Terez, Brokenfingers, Chris, and Keyboarclass for a good discussion and kind praises, and even a undeserved reference to Star Trek. Perhaps, the simplicity of the waltz had an unusual flavor given my nostalgic intentions, but it's not like I am playing Chopin Etudes these days... :wink:

Piano21, let us know if you succeed with your arpeggios...


Reference to Star Trek? I hope you don't mean my 'teleported' bit.

Thanks Terez. I'm constantly reminded how knowledgeable the members of this community are. I like it here :D


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:47 am 
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Piano21 wrote:
i can't play fast arpeggio very well, especially in white key (for me, it's very hard to play fast arpeggio in C Major, F Major, and G Major)...is there any suggestion for practicing fast arpeggio?

Piano21,
Technique is not something that is achieved overnight. I suggest playing B major, D flat major, F sharp Major, and A flat Major arpeggios to begin with, and then start with the white keys. Time is an important element in piano. Time, Patience, and hard work can ensure success. As for practice, I know it can be very boring just playing the arpeggios over and over again. I suggest playing Prokofiev's etude in C major known as "The Harp" prelude. This of course is not an any piece, but isint exactly his 2nd piano concerto cadenza either. This prelude focuses on arpeggios mostly in the right hand and some in the left hand. It has beautiful harmonies and at the same time very beneficial. Here is the link to the scores http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/c ... piano_.pdf It is the 7th piece titled Prelude
Hope I was able to help.


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:12 pm 
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88man wrote:
Practice ff, and equalize the weakest fingers as much as possible by strengthening regimens. That means the 4th and 5th fingers. Keep fingers curved, not curled. For R.H. arpeggios, make sure the wrist is straight with your arm, so no angled wrists, and after you play the thumb, place it under immediately after the note is played, and maintain it there until you play it again. You will see that the thumb will be right on the note as you go C E G C' E' G' C'' etc. This way you can go very fast. Don't skip notes until you play the next note, it will serve to stabilize and give you a point of reference. In other words, don't remove the thumb until you play the 2nd finger; don't remove the 2nd finger until you play the 3rd finger; and don't remove the 3rd finger until you play the thumb on the second octave, etc... This will prevent you from producing hiccups in motion and sound and produce a uniform arpeggio. Simultaneously the hand should move as fast to keep pace with the notes in the direction of motion.

Practice arpeggios with a nickel coin on top of your hand. If the coin falls off, then you're not doing it correctly. Good Luck!


Thanks for the tips...
it's really helped me..... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Arpeggio perfection
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:48 pm
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In playing scales and arpeggios, it's important to ignore the old pedagogical advice of previous generations of passing the thumb under the palm of the hand. Playing scales and arpeggios is far more efficient and effective when the thumb is kept parallel to the hand in these situations--that is to say, no passing it under the hand. It requires the pianist to develop a synthesizing motion, specifically an anticipatory and timely shift of the hand in the ascending or descending direction along the keyboard to maintain the thumb in parallel position as the scale or arpeggio is executed.

David

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