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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:26 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
And this would be between Off-Topic and On-Topic: which edition of Chopin Etudes would you guys recommend?


Wiener-Urtext/Badura-Skoda or the new PWM/Ekier. The new PWM/Ekier should be the state of the art of what scholars know about Chopin's music. I have the Preludes and have recently ordered Valses and the misc. works (Berceuse, Fantasia, etc.). They have great commentaries but the typography is poorer compared to WUE, which is also far less expensive. Go for the WUE, I am quite happy with it.

hyenal wrote:
I know the newest edition is Peters Critical Edition and I have one of them (Preludes). But everything is too small printed there and the binding is not so comfortable to use. Maybe this is one of many causes which let me give up to learn them so early :roll:


That's exactly one of my pet-peeves, poor readability.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Last I heard, the etudes weren't out yet in Peters. I have been waiting for those, since I work more on the etudes than any other Chopin genre. I'm going to buy it for a study edition because I'm told by several people that it's the best Chopin urtext available, covering all of its bases properly. I spend so little time with the score when learning a piece that readability doesn't affect me much.

Speaking of finger substitution and 4-5 crossing (and do you cross over, or under?), and those last few measures of the organ passacaglia...I have been avoiding working on those few measures, saving figuring out the fingering for later, working on more straightforward things in the manual parts. If I had a real edition, I could cheat, but I don't like cheating anyway. Anyway, I've finally figured out the fingerings, and I'm amazed by how smoothly it all works out. I can't think of a single instance in the simple keyboard music where Bach requires anything close to this amount of legato dense polyphony, but I'm hardly an expert, so maybe Alf knows of something. However, even if this was written for harpsichord, a certain amount of cheating would be nearly undetectable. On organ, you don't have that luxury.

Image

I thought this passage was going to break my fingers when I first tried playing it, but I quite enjoyed figuring out the fingering when the time came. It's like a logic puzzle. :lol: Anyway, it occasionally requires one hand to pick up a note in the other hand's staff, but that is another very common thing for Bach keyboard writing, and not so prominent in this passacaglia as elsewhere, with the exception of one variation that requires it quite a bit:

Image

That one reminds me a good deal of the capriccio in the c minor partita, but really, it's fairly standard stuff for Bach.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:17 pm 
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alf wrote:
Wiener-Urtext/Badura-Skoda or the new PWM/Ekier. The new PWM/Ekier should be the state of the art of what scholars know about Chopin's music. I have the Preludes and have recently ordered Valses and the misc. works (Berceuse, Fantasia, etc.). They have great commentaries but the typography is poorer compared to WUE, which is also far less expensive. Go for the WUE, I am quite happy with it.

Thanks Alfonso for sharing this useful info. Indeed Etudes of PWM kosts about 10 EUR more than WUE!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:28 pm 
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Terez, thank you for this interesting stuff! I tried to find fingerings for the first measures and gave it up on the second bar :lol: If it is not too much work, may I ask you to bother with showing us/me your fingering a bit? (just a couple of measures) I'd like to have more examples of finger crossing which I hardly do (while finger substitution is actually one of my daily things.)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:29 am 
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hyenal wrote:
Terez, thank you for this interesting stuff! I tried to find fingerings for the first measures and gave it up on the second bar :lol: If it is not too much work, may I ask you to bother with showing us/me your fingering a bit? (just a couple of measures) I'd like to have more examples of finger crossing which I hardly do (while finger substitution is actually one of my daily things.)

LOL, easier said than done, but I did it anyhow. It was fun. :lol: There are surprisingly few options in this passage, but there are a few things that might be done differently:

Image

Of course, that switch to 4 in the 2nd measure soprano is not strictly necessary, though it sort of happens automatically sometimes with my hand shape (by the wrist pivoting, which happens a lot in these few measures :lol:), and neither are the switches in the RH parallel 6ths at the end entirely necessary, if you are willing to do some thumb-hopping. I wrote in thumb-hopping in two places in the alto, and 2-hopping in the LH twice. But in the last bit there, it is tasteful and even customary to make a grand ritardando, so the switching is quite possible. Thumb hopping is necessary the last two moves, though, I think.....the break in the bottom note doesn't sound bad at all so long as the top voices are legato. I suppose you could pick up that last G in the LH with the pedal...but I don't know if that is allowed!

PS - If you'd like, I'll finger the other passage later. It seems straightforward enough, but the hand-switching technique is actually fairly counterintuitive.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:13 am 
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Thank you Terez ! It's great to see what others come up with as far as fingering goes.

On this subject - I often have more trouble remembering the fingering than the notes...
Busoni's Bach also has some mean fingertwisters as far as I can remember...

And regarding restarting Bach : I've had the same dilemna, but frankly (please spare me) many of the pieces do not appeal enough to me that I can learn them properly without my teacher making me slave on it. I've yet to play an entire P and F though (I've done Ps, I've done Fs, but never both - go figure)
However, the piano repertoire is something really huge ; I've found delights similar to Bach's in Glazunov, Medtner and sometimes even Scriabin.
Glazunov has that clean lyricism and a lot of polyphony and counterpoint (the 3 études, the piano sonatas - the second one first movement has a lot in common with Bach I find -, just wonderful music).
Medtner I like because you have both chordesque and polyphonic passages ; a great example of that diversity is the Tragica : the first theme has lots of chords, a melody with some minor harmonies with sometime a descending secondary voice on the left hand, while the second theme has four voices (though the thema is cantabile and one voice is marked staccato) and is hell to finger properly (unless you have more than ten of those boys).


Last edited by Teddy on Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:23 am 
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I haven't played any Busoni transcriptions, so I'm not going to try to make a comparison, but the thing I like about Bach's finger-twisters is that they are graceful, perfectly constructed technique, not to mention graceful, perfectly constructed counterpoint....the two happen to work together in a graceful, perfectly constructed way. It really is dancing. Bach's writing is every bit as idiomatic for the limited range polyphonic keyboard technique as Chopin is idiomatic for the piano. I feel like a lot of composers who write difficult music have awkward technical situations where the solutions are not all that artistic.

Also, I realized that on the first beat of the last measure, in the RH, I tend to slide rather than substituting: particularly there, the substitution would be illogical. All of the repeat finger situations are slides except for the last two in the alto, where an actual hop is required from the E-flat to the F. From F to G is not so bad, but still not really a slide for my hand shape. And also the 2-2 from F to G in the left hand.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:40 am 
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It's true that once you've mastered some of the finger twist moves, it is really fun to play. But I wouldn't say they are graceful, especially when learning it : often when playing Bach (or similar fingerpuzzles) I wonder if that's really meant to be played that way because I feel so awkward, though it ends up feeling natural.

One other thing I hate (or rather have trouble with) is practicing voice separate while keeping the "final" fingering. This goes not only for Bach, but also for most composers. I can never manage to remember the fingerings I use hands together (I usually practice without the sheet).
Fingering is also, usually, the first thing I forget in a piece, and my biggest cause of memory lapse during performance. You're playing fine and then you play a chord or a note correctly, but with the "wrong" finger, and then you just can't get back from there.
I was playing the Prokofiev first sonata for friends a while ago, and had to restart shortly after exposing the first subject (which is really nothing hard) : for a reason I play a lot of works in F minor (or C minor, simple yet emotionnal keys in my opinion !) and fingered a chord wrong, and couldn't for the life of me remember how it went after that (you know it has that chord and that chromatic line, but you just can't play it - attempting to do so will, in my experience, result in an awful sounding failure ; when it happens I just silence a few voices and sing the melody until it all comes back to me).


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:48 am 
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Teddy wrote:
It's true that once you've mastered some of the finger twist moves, it is really fun to play. But I wouldn't say they are graceful, especially when learning it : often when playing Bach (or similar fingerpuzzles) I wonder if that's really meant to be played that way because I feel so awkward, though it ends up feeling natural.

You said it yourself, at the end. Bach's technique is not awkward at all - only counterintuitive. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:18 am 
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Terez, this is an organ piece. You don't play legato sixteenths on an organ, it would sound a mush, except perhaps on a small organ with 4" stops max. Been there, done that.. There is little point in agonizing over the fingering to achieve a perfect seamless legato.

Having said that, the ability to cross any finger over any other one is a very useful one, especially in polyphonic music, and can often lead to better solutions than finger-substituting.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:00 am 
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WHOA, forum change. :lol: And my post disappeared! Anyway....

I don't think it sounds mushy at all to play legato, lol! In fact, I think it sounds awful if it's not. There's a difference between legato and holding notes too long so they overlap. Also, I didn't 'agonize' over the fingering. :wink: After having figured it out, I'm quite sure it was intended to be played almost exactly like that.

Incidentally, you are the first organist I've ever heard say something like that, and I know quite a few of them. I know that legato is not always appropriate, but I think this passage is definitely one of those places where it's required. In any case, thanks for letting me know it was an organ piece. :P

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Terez wrote:
I don't think it sounds mushy at all to play legato, lol! In fact, I think it sounds awful if it's not. There's a difference between legato and holding notes too long so they overlap.

If you were to play this on a big organ, seamlessly legato, recording it from a listener's position, then listened back to it, you might see my point. The notes really need a little breathing space around them, or everything will sound a blur (ok, maybe not a mush). You can hear an example in the final variation of my recording of Walther's partita (starting from 11:10) where all 16ths are more or less consistently played portato. Even the slow pedal notes should have been played that way, but that is for the next recording.

Terez wrote:
Also, I didn't 'agonize' over the fingering. :wink:

Writing down the finger for each and every note seem pretty agonizing to me....

Terez wrote:
Incidentally, you are the first organist I've ever heard say something like that, and I know quite a few of them.

I don't think US organists are into HIP as much as European ones. If there's one thing I have learned in organ lessons, it is not to play legato. And listening back, I always agree to that adage.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Yay, I can post!

1. What is HIP?

2. Why 16ths, and not other note values? If there's any particular note value that calls out for detachment in this piece, I think it's the 8th.

3. What's your definition of a 'big organ'? I will be playing it on a real pipe organ if I ever manage to learn it, but I don't know that I would call it 'big'. It's in an auditorium that seats about 500.

4. I have listened to several recordings of the piece on YouTube. There were two that stuck out in my memory - one for being my favorite recording, the other for having a good video close-up of the organist.

The close-up video is Hans-Andre Stamme, at Waltherhausen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvozjEbs ... re=related

He uses portato on some of the 16ths like you suggested. I'm not fond of the way it sounds, but that's just me. But more importantly, at the end, in the passage in question, you can see that he uses legato fingering, despite playing portato. That doesn't surprise me - I don't see how you could play it otherwise. In fact, he seems to use mostly the same fingering as what I wrote, though I didn't catch all of his fingerings.

My favorite recording, Pierre Cochereau in Notre Dame (before the organ was modernized):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM1SLmAS ... re=related

Sounds to me to be as legato as can be. And I love it. And that's a big organ! :lol: He plays it a bit slower than Stamme, because it's Notre Dame and the resonance in that place is scary. I'm glad he chose to do that rather than playing portato on the 16ths!

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Terez wrote:
1. What is HIP?

Historically Informed Performance. Think Harnoncourt, Gardiner, rather than Karajan, Furtwaengler.

Terez wrote:
2. Why 16ths, and not other note values? If there's any particular note value that calls out for detachment in this piece, I think it's the 8th.

Other values too. But the faster the notes go, the more chance of them blurring all together when you don't let them breathe.

Terez wrote:
3. What's your definition of a 'big organ'? I will be playing it on a real pipe organ if I ever manage to learn it, but I don't know that I would call it 'big'. It's in an auditorium that seats about 500.

The acoustic and pipe size os more a factor than the 'size of the organ'. The sound of big pipes take longer to attack and decay, and natural acoustic aggravates that. Try playing legato running notes on a 16ft pipe.

Terez wrote:
4. I have listened to several recordings of the piece on YouTube. There were two that stuck out in my memory - one for being my favorite recording, the other for having a good video close-up of the organist.

Yikes, how I hate Bach played old-style on a French romantic organ with wailing flutes and salicionals and grinding plenum. Cocherau's recording sounds more like Franck than Bach, or maybe like catholic Bach. It becomes a wall of sound, unfortunately more a like concrete than a brick wall.
Stamm's is a lot better - he also has the better organ for this music. Though I don't much like his registrations. At least he is precise and well-articulated but even he does not keep things transparent.


Try Ton Koopman on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ocUsZRmBAA.
Already in the beginning you hear how he detaches the slow pedal notes. The consistently airy touch allows him to dance rather than grind through this piece. This is how it should sound, IMO (well maybe not for all his trills and frills which are too much of a good thing sometimes). If I can ever play organ like that I can die happily :D

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:13 am 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
1. What is HIP?

Historically Informed Performance.

Ah, okay. I don't think we are less into it than other places, necessarily. In academia, we are probably just as much into it, but I there is no longer an organ prof at my school (he just retired, and due to economic situation, they were able to justify cutting his spot on the faculty), and all the organists I know are church organists, trained to various degrees. That's the thing about the US....there is a church on every corner, especially here in MS, and they all need organists. That results in a lot of opportunists with no training teaching themselves how to play organ from only knowing piano (like me, though my motivation is Bach rather than a church job).

However, I have a philosophy about 'HIP', that basically boils down to this: it's important for me to know how things were done back in the day, but it is not always so important for me to do things that way. Partly because some of the changes in performance practice have come about because of improvements in the making of instruments, and also because of a sort of artistic evolution. And don't mistake the latter sentiment for an impression that music somehow becomes better as time goes on. You know how I feel about Bach. However, there are some ideas that were introduced after Bach's death, particularly in the Romantic era, that I think he would have most likely capitalized upon. It's hard to argue, but it's just as impossible to determine that he would not have done things differently, if influenced by those ideas. So, I would like to know how Bach did it, but in the end, there is still a musical choice to make, and I think that the danger of HIP is that it gives the impression that the choice is already made.

In this case, I would like to know what, exactly, the HIP guidelines are, and what, exactly, Bach had to say on the subject, if anything (via CPE works too).

Chris wrote:
Yikes, how I hate Bach played old-style on a French romantic organ with wailing flutes and salicionals and grinding plenum. Cocherau's recording sounds more like Franck than Bach, or maybe like catholic Bach. It becomes a wall of sound, unfortunately more a like concrete than a brick wall.

But was it 'mushy'? LOL. Well, it is at least clear that you and I have very different ideas about how an organ should sound. Bach was not so prejudiced against Frenchy things! :lol: I don't know why you have a problem with WALL O SOUND, because that's my favorite thing about organ. If it wasn't for that, I would stick to piano!

Chris wrote:
Stamm's is a lot better - he also has the better organ for this music. Though I don't much like his registrations. At least he is precise and well-articulated but even he does not keep things transparent.

I do like the organ he plays on, but I prefer the Notre Dame organ, I think. It's hard to say, because of course registrations have a lot to do with how it sounds. As for Stamm's registrations, from what I could tell, he didn't use a great deal of contrast at all. On his interpretation...particularly disturbing to me was the rushed ending. However...

Chris wrote:

*barf* LOL, sorry, but WTF was up with that ending? How can you not notch it up? Also...what is up with his weird tempo fluctuations? He rushes in some of the most terrible places! But the ending was the worst, and I hear in this one of the most musically disgusting examples I have ever heard of the worst danger of HIP: this notion that the music should somehow speak for itself. I can understand not liking Cochereau's fluty organ, but at least he has some notion of drama.

Chris wrote:
Already in the beginning you hear how he detaches the slow pedal notes. The consistently airy touch allows him to dance rather than grind through this piece. This is how it should sound, IMO (well maybe not for all his trills and frills which are too much of a good thing sometimes). If I can ever play organ like that I can die happily :D

I don't see how legato prevents the dance; in my humble opinion, the dance in Bach comes from a variety of articulation, rather than a rule, and also from the grace of his technique. But it looks as if we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. :lol: I agree about his ornaments being just a bit much sometimes, but there are definitely a few places where I will be adding some. And while the detached pedal does have an interesting musical effect, especially in the first couple of variations, I think I still prefer it legato.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:50 am 
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Yep, we agree to disagree, and let that be it. Indeed Koopman rushes things forward a bit at times. I could have done without that but did not find it very disturbing.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:37 pm 
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Thanks for all the info, though. Like I said, it's important for me to know these things. Oh, and one thing I meant to ask you - is Stamm's double-dotting on the first couple of variations appropriate HIP? I have learned about double-dotting from our Bach HIP expert, but she is retired and only teaches one class, and I am having trouble catching her this semester because I have a class at the same time across campus. But I noticed that Koopman didn't do it. I have been experimenting with it, and at first I thought it was weird, but now I like it (much like the double-dotting in the sinfonia of the c minor partita, not to mention the 'double-dotting' where there are not dots in the first place :lol:).

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:03 am 
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Terez wrote:
Thanks for all the info, though. Like I said, it's important for me to know these things. Oh, and one thing I meant to ask you - is Stamm's double-dotting on the first couple of variations appropriate HIP? I have learned about double-dotting from our Bach HIP expert, but she is retired and only teaches one class, and I am having trouble catching her this semester because I have a class at the same time across campus. But I noticed that Koopman didn't do it. I have been experimenting with it, and at first I thought it was weird, but now I like it (much like the double-dotting in the sinfonia of the c minor partita, not to mention the 'double-dotting' where there are not dots in the first place :lol:).

Dunno - I am no HIP expert. I would assume that HIP is for a large part about playing as written. Personally I don't see the point of double-dotting. Bach writes very concisely and if he writes a single dot who are we to make it into a double one ? But then again, if this was what people did in Bach's time, there is as much justification for it as for adding embellishments. There are also modern pianists, in romantic repertoire, who have a tendency to shorten dotted notes too. Recently I noticed this with Stephen Coombs playing Glazunov's first Op.101 prelude.

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:55 pm 
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I finally got to practice on the actual organ last night, for the first time. I have been practicing the manual parts on my digital with the pedal track recorded, and now that I've got them learned and memorized, I figured I'd get to the thing about learning to play with my feets. FOOT SUBSTITUTIONS. lol, finger subs are much easier! :lol: And I haven't figured out how to do it without a lot of pivoting on the bench. Every time the bassline starts over again, on that C, I have to get it first with my right foot, then the left (on a quarter note), and pivot my whole body to the right. It's so weird. But I think I got the hang of it after a few hours. Can pretty much play the whole thing now (not the fugue - haven't started working on that yet at all) except for the parts with the fiddly pedal...

I have a feeling I am going to be experimenting A LOT with registrations....and the reeds are out of tune. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Terez wrote:
I finally got to practice on the actual organ last night, for the first time. I have been practicing the manual parts on my digital with the pedal track recorded, and now that I've got them learned and memorized, I figured I'd get to the thing about learning to play with my feets. FOOT SUBSTITUTIONS. lol, finger subs are much easier! :lol: And I haven't figured out how to do it without a lot of pivoting on the bench. Every time the bassline starts over again, on that C, I have to get it first with my right foot, then the left (on a quarter note), and pivot my whole body to the right. It's so weird. But I think I got the hang of it after a few hours. Can pretty much play the whole thing now (not the fugue - haven't started working on that yet at all) except for the parts with the fiddly pedal...

So, already after a couple of hours you are playing parts of this Chaconne and feeling like you get the hang of it ? Darn, you have a lot more talent than I ....

Terez wrote:
I have a feeling I am going to be experimenting A LOT with registrations....and the reeds are out of tune. :cry:

Welcome to the wonderful world of organ playing :P

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:29 pm 
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Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
techneut wrote:
So, already after a couple of hours you are playing parts of this Chaconne and feeling like you get the hang of it ?

Well, at first it was really weird. It's still weird, but at first, I had a hard time adding that layer of contrary motion. Because I was just getting the hang of the contrary motion in the manual parts, and of course the pedal is going in yet different directions, lol. But since I have at least been practicing with the pedal part in my ear, I think that helped a lot. It took me the longest time to figure out I could cross feet easily. That made things a lot simpler. Trust me...if it wasn't the same thing over and over again, I wouldn't have gotten the hang of it.

I've been told I'll have to learn how to tune the reeds myself. It's so much! :lol: I'm hoping a real organist will play on it some time soon and tune them....

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Thanks for all the info, though. Like I said, it's important for me to know these things. Oh, and one thing I meant to ask you - is Stamm's double-dotting on the first couple of variations appropriate HIP? I have learned about double-dotting from our Bach HIP expert, but she is retired and only teaches one class, and I am having trouble catching her this semester because I have a class at the same time across campus. But I noticed that Koopman didn't do it. I have been experimenting with it, and at first I thought it was weird, but now I like it (much like the double-dotting in the sinfonia of the c minor partita, not to mention the 'double-dotting' where there are not dots in the first place :lol:).


I've read and heard different takes on over-dotting in Bach. (I'll try to find my sources to give to you.)

I'm thinking that one is from Willy Palmer in the Alfred edition of the WTC. This was mostly in reference to the D maj. Fugue, #5. Some performers over dot and some do not. The editor's opinion was that over-dotting is more of a French idiom and therefore would be mostly appropriate in German music written in the French style. He also points out that in this particular fugue, there are a couple of spots that over-dotting (to continue the articulation) would result in forbidden parallels. Thus, at least in this instance of Bach, it is likely in appropriate.

Over-dotting might be appropriate in the Overture of the "French Overture" since it is intended to be stylistically French, The dotted eigth / sixteenth is a regular feature, it is usually matched with a 32nd note pattern and its pulse is rather slow.

I don't have my C.P.E Bach "True Art..." with me to see what he has to say about it. Another source to look for is Quantz work on Flute Playing, which offers more on period practice than on actual flute playing.

Just some thoughts. Hope it helps.

Scott

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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:26 pm 
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@Teddy: Thank you for sharing your experience about Bach and others!
@Terez: Thank you for the fingering! I followed yours and found I would do nearly the same only if I could think up the finger crossing on the first measure :lol: Anyway it was very useful that I could see your fingering, thanks again. It's really like a logical puzzle. Finding a fingering is sometimes very exciting, indeed, but I tend to change the "logical" fingering I found at last, when my fingers choose another fingering after I'm used to the piece :roll:
BTW what's the "hand switch technique"??
@Chris: As I saw the word "HIP" in your post, it was only the German baby food HIPP which occurred to me :lol: I'm totally orientiert in things around the babys now!

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"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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 Post subject: Re: How should I restart studying Bach?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:19 am 
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lol, I also have a hard time re-learning bad fingering. Also, I just meant by 'hand-switching' that there is often a voice that is in the middle that is passed back and forth between both hands. There is a lot of that in all Bach, and a good bit in this piece in particular, especially that one variation that I didn't finger, where it gets a little bit convoluted. :lol:

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