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 Post subject: Schubert, Hungarian Melody D. 817
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Hello,

I started this one more than 1 year ago. I shall still improve it but now I cannot continue with this piece any longer. I hope that it can be accepted as it is. :?:
Thank you for your indulgence. :)

EDIT: unvalid version removed.


Last edited by Didier on Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
I never heard this before, but it sounds good to me. Thanks for sharing a pleasant tune.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:10 pm 
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I like this piece and followed along with the score. I think for the most part, you played it well, Didier. Some of the groups of legato thirds sounded a little strained to me, though. But my main concern is the way you slowed down so much at the end. I see no markings for this and to me it really does not work. Yes, it says 'dolce' but that's it. I think you should keep the same tempo all the way to the end.
Maybe you know something about this piece that I don't, so please tell me if I am incorrect about this.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:51 pm 
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I don't know this piece and did not follow with the score so I can't comment on slips or misreadings It sounded pretty accurate to me. It seems to me your rhythmic stability has improved some since your last Schubert submission. But we're not there yet, you really struggle in the middle section (that sounds not at all easy btw). As Monica noted, thirds are not your forte as yet, most or all sound uneven. And Schubert is real fond of thirds.... Maybe you should spend some time on thirds (Bartok's Mikrokosmos has some great study material for thirds).

On the plus side, we have wonderful sound, a real Hungarian feeling, and a certain artistic liberty. Not sure I agree with your huge ritenuto for the ending, but it sounds good. I think this recording, despite its obvious flaws, can go up on the site, and can be enjoyed by many as honest effort (as well as work in progress :wink: )

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:03 pm 
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Thank you juufa, Monica and Chris for your kind comments. I was well conscious about the strained thirds, especially the last ones on page 2 on which I spend all my Saturday evening... It was a kind of psychological barrier, I think, because they are not the most difficult one in this piece. I did not realize before that I was facing some difficulty here. Curious...
It was a bit better on Sunday morning.

Now, the slow end... :oops:
Note a choice. Only not assimilated enough, not printed in the fingers. I wanted to submit this piece before leaving tomorrow, coming backs at home on next week for a few days that should be very busy, before leaving again for 2 vacation weeks. So at best I will be able to record again this end at a more suitable tempo by the end of August. I intend to improve the whole piece but will need much more time to get it.

About the sound: I found a beautiful reverb as free impulse responses (IR) from a professional digital reverberation processor, the Bricasti M7: http://www.acousticas.net/World/IRs/AcousticasM7.zip. It's also available in a still more sophisticated form, 2 different stereo files for processing the left and right channel, from http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/category/samples/impulse-sets/. For using these IR, one need a plugin like SIR, a free version of which is available from http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir1.html, and an audio editor compatible with such a plugin. I think that Audacity is. Take care: this is not the simplest solution for adding reverb but the result sounds especially good. As good, according to some tests, as from the true Bricasti that costs more than 3000$. I used the IR named Music Room. There are also Amsterdam, Berlin and Vienne halls... :roll: (I don't play yet good enough for using these ones.)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:12 am 
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Very nice, Didier. For me, playing the thirds fortissimo and lifting the fingers high while practicing helps to strengthen your technique for thirds - hey, thirds are my Achilles heel. As far as sound, I like the balance you've achieved in this recording.

Didier wrote:
Quote:
About the sound: I found a beautiful reverb as free impulse responses (IR) from a professional digital reverberation processor, the Bricasti M7


IMHO, the Bricasti M7 is the finest and most realistic reverb unit for classical music, but at a premium price. It doesn't produce harsh reverb tails like software based reverbs, nor does it muffle the details, even if you extend it to 30 seconds. It's even better than convolution reverbs.
I made a deal with Casey, one of two innovators of Bricasti - If I buy the M7, he's going to come to my studio and personally show me the intricacies of the machine in my setup, and he's going to throw in an extra digital XLR/SPDIF converters. The company is local. I'll probably give him a case of beer for his time (he doesn't know that). But, seriously, those guys KNOW reverb and their algorithm is the finest in the industry!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:00 pm 
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Hi Didier,
this is still a quite nice performance of this little gem. I followed along with score and I just have to add two points to the problem of the thirds in your right hand, which Monica and Chris still have pointed out. You sometimes drop also the minor- or major-third in the chords of the accompaniment in the left hand, f. ex. at the beginning (d) and at the end of part one (a flat), but also at some places in the second part. At the end you become slower and slower, but the diminuendo refers only to the dynamic, not to the tempo, so there is nothing said of a long ritardando or something similar in the score. At least you should hold the tempo of the beginning until nearly the last bar, I think, then you could make a little rit. at the end. But may be this is intended as an artistic liberty by you?

Thank you very much for the links above! I´ll try the new reverberation out, when I do my next recording. Do you think, it works with Wavelab?

Congratulations to your nice performance, which is played very sensitively and musically as we are used from you. The sound-quality really is overwhelming!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Hi Andreas,

thank you for your careful listening. Yes this is far from being perfect, only my best today. I will pay more attention to hit all the notes at LH when I will work again this piece.

You can use any VST or DirectX plugin with Wavelab. The IRs of which I gave the links are not plugins, they are wav files to be used with a convolution reverberation plugin like SIR. I saw in the recent topic A liittle test from Monica that you was using plugins from Waves, who is proposing IR1 full, which accepts twin-stereo IRs.

I registered again the last page. I think it's better.

Schubert - Hungarian Melody in B minor, D817 ( 3:38 )


Last edited by Didier on Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:17 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
I like this one better.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:07 pm 
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Yes this is indeed better. A couple of technical issues do not really distract from what is otherwise a nice performance - and it has the benefit of great sound of course. I will proceed to put this one up on the site (unless Monica gets there first).

It seems to me that you have improved your rhythmic stability, Didier. It's far from optimal yet but much better than in your first Schubert recording, which I remember well because I bashed it to bits :wink: Keep up the good work ! And play Bach ! Oops, did I say this already ?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
did I say this already ?


Yes, several times! At the end, you might convince me. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Didier wrote:
Yes, several times! At the end, you might convince me. :wink:

In the end, you'll do it just to shut me up :P

No kidding, it really helps, better than anything else.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Hi Chris,

the version on the site was the first one in this topic with the slow end, that I just removed. Please, could you replace it by the second one still available from here?

I acknowledge that I would have made your task easier if I would have submit only the right one. :?

Cheers,

Didier


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Oh, I did not realize you had redone this one. I have replaced it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:15 pm 
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Didier wrote:
Quote:
You can use any VST or DirectX plugin with Wavelab. The IRs of which I gave the links are not plugins, they are wav files to be used with a convolution reverberation plugin like SIR. I saw in the recent topic A liittle test from Monica that you was using plugins from Waves, who is proposing IR1 full, which accepts twin-stereo IRs.


Could you explain me, please, what is "IR1 full" and "twin-stereo IRs" and what steps I have to do to use these plug-ins. I wanted to use them still for the four-hands-recordings by Chris and me, but I wasn´t successfull to get them into WaveLab somehow. So I don´t know, how to use them. I have downloaded all from the links you gave us.

To your second version:
You still leave out sometimes the upper note of the chords in the left hand. Do you have another edition than me? (I have the E. St.) For example at the beginning there is missing always the d in the LH. Sometimes this falsifies a bit the composition, because very often it is the glowing third you leave out.
Also the thirds in the RH could be improved here and there. But I have to say the rhythmic steadiness in the first part is quite good.
Especially in bar 43 of part two (if I have counted correctly), where is the b-major-chord in the LH, the third you leave out is so important for the structure of the composition (because of the sudden change from minor to major). The "Septolen" are a bit unexact.
You begin the ritardando very early, nearly three complete systems before end. For me the last three or four bars would be enough for a final ritardando.
All in all the rhythmic steadiness has improved a lot!

Your expression is so beautiful as always. I love to listen to your sensitive and musical playing!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:44 am 
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Hi Andreas,

thank you for listening again this recording. I have the Henle score, which seems being the same like your one. I shall work again the LH, the RH thirds and the end. :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:13 am 
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Quote:
Could you explain me, please, what is "IR1 full" and "twin-stereo IRs" and what steps I have to do to use these plug-ins. I wanted to use them still for the four-hands-recordings by Chris and me, but I wasn´t successfull to get them into WaveLab somehow. So I don´t know, how to use them. I have downloaded all from the links you gave us.


An IR (impulse response) is a wav, or possibly another audio format, file. It is used by a plugin for adding reverberation to a recording by means of a mathematical operation combining both audio files, the IR and the recording, named convolution.
So you cannot use the Bricasti IRs without a convolution plugin. You have to put the wav IRs in a directory on your computer and load the one you want to use from the convolution plugin. True stereo IR is a set of two stereo IRs, one being used for generating L and R reverberation from the recording L channel, and the other one being combined the same with the recording R channel.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:25 pm 
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I have put the SIR_1011.dll into the VST-plugin-folder of WaveLab and it´s fantastic! I have all the different halls, spaces, rooms of Bricasti M7 now. I think this SIR must be this convolution plugin, isn´t it?
Thank you so much for these valuable links, Didier, which opens a complete new world of different reverberation- and ambience-settings. I´m actually listening to our Mozart-four-hands with Worchester-Hall-reverberation. I like this setting, but there are tons of others to discover. That´s so inspiring!
You deserve thousands of bottles of wine for this valuable advice and these links, Didier :!: (Alas, I haven´t so much at home. :wink: ) Image It´s really amazing, that all this is freeware, isn´t it?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:00 pm 
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Quote:
I think this SIR must be this convolution plugin, isn´t it?

Yes.

Quote:
that all this is freeware, isn´t it?


Yes it is. The release of the IRs by both sources of which I gave the links was approved by Bricasti. Take care on not putting reverb in excess.... :wink:

Than you for the bottles. Your piano playing advices are much more worth to me. The few hundred bottles in the cellar located just under the floor at the piano place, with an air cooling device that is a bit noisy so that I must wait it stopping for recording, are enough to me. I stopped the whisky. I shall now reduce the wine, which is more difficult to me but absolutely mandatory for stabilizing, hopefully decreasing, my weight... :cry:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:17 am 
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Didier wrote:
Quote:
I stopped the whisky. I shall now reduce the wine, which is more difficult to me but absolutely mandatory for stabilizing, hopefully decreasing, my weight... :cry:


I know this, I know this, Didier. I have totally stopped the wine, but now I really have to stop the beer. though I even have reduced it...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:30 am 
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Didier wrote:
Thank you juufa, Monica and Chris for your kind comments. I was well conscious about the strained thirds, especially the last ones on page 2 on which I spend all my Saturday evening... It was a kind of psychological barrier, I think, because they are not the most difficult one in this piece. I did not realize before that I was facing some difficulty here. Curious...
It was a bit better on Sunday morning.

Now, the slow end... :oops:
Note a choice. Only not assimilated enough, not printed in the fingers. I wanted to submit this piece before leaving tomorrow, coming backs at home on next week for a few days that should be very busy, before leaving again for 2 vacation weeks. So at best I will be able to record again this end at a more suitable tempo by the end of August. I intend to improve the whole piece but will need much more time to get it.

About the sound: I found a beautiful reverb as free impulse responses (IR) from a professional digital reverberation processor, the Bricasti M7: http://www.acousticas.net/World/IRs/AcousticasM7.zip. It's also available in a still more sophisticated form, 2 different stereo files for processing the left and right channel, from http://www.rhythminmind.net/presetblog/category/samples/impulse-sets/. For using these IR, one need a plugin like SIR, a free version of which is available from http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir1.html, and an audio editor compatible with such a plugin. I think that Audacity is. Take care: this is not the simplest solution for adding reverb but the result sounds especially good. As good, according to some tests, as from the true Bricasti that costs more than 3000$. I used the IR named Music Room. There are also Amsterdam, Berlin and Vienne halls... :roll: (I don't play yet good enough for using these ones.)


Hi Didier,

Is there any similar freeware reverb device that works with Mac so I could test it out?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:46 am 
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Hi Horowitzian,

you need an audio editor and a convolution plugin for exploiting the Bricasti IRs. Audacity is available for Mac. SIR1 is only available for Windows. I don't know whether there is another convolution plugin as an alternative freeware for Mac.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:35 am 
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I have Audacity 1.3.7 for Mac OS X, FWIW. Thanks for the info! :wink: What is the convolution plugin? I must confess to being relatively new to all this. :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:29 am 
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A plugin is a computer program that is intended to work within an host application, an audio editor in our case, Audacity for instance. There are are a lot of free audio plugins for equalizing, noise removing end so on: just google free plugins. A convolution plugin exploits implulse responses, which are synthetic or recorded audio files representing the sound signature of a room, to add reverberation to an audio file. You should google convolution plugin for MAC. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:27 pm 
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Well done Didier! And excellent sound quality, as always. You really do a great service to us amateur recorders!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:48 pm 
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Didier wrote:
A plugin is a computer program that is intended to work within an host application, an audio editor in our case, Audacity for instance. There are are a lot of free audio plugins for equalizing, noise removing end so on: just google free plugins. A convolution plugin exploits implulse responses, which are synthetic or recorded audio files representing the sound signature of a room, to add reverberation to an audio file. You should google convolution plugin for MAC. :)


Will do. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Most of the "free" ones are actually demos that make some crappy noise every ten seconds, I guess to remind you to fork over the money. And the ones that really are freeware, I have no idea how good they are. Any advice there?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:11 pm 
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The convolution plugin is mandatory but its choice is not so important. They all perform a convolution, which is the same mathematical operation for every one.

The reverb quality rely on the IR used by the convolution plugin. The free Bricasti IRs are very good. The IR form acousticas are stereo. All convolutrion plugins can use them. The IRs from signaltonoize.com are twin-stereo (2 stereo files per IR) and requires more advanced convolution plugins. I do not think that the difference between both is substantial. I could post a short demo here for comparing them if you wish.

Unfortunately for you the software offer for Mac is more limited than for PC. I can't give you any advice because I am on PC. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:53 pm 
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There's actually a good deal for Mac...but it's all extremely expensive. The cheapest one I could find was like $500 USD. :shock: I'm sure they are worth every penny, but it's overkill for me. Freeware is exactly what I need. :D

I'd like a comparison if it's not too much trouble. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:57 pm 
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I found a freeware convolver know as LAConvolver that seems to be well spoken of, and got Audacity to recognize it after some fiddling. Now I guess I need some impulse responses. :D

[edit] I downloaded that first Bricasti M7 zip file you linked to. Can't quite figure out what I'm supposed to do with them...

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Last edited by Horowitzian on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:11 am 
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For the IRs, see the links to Acousticas and Signaltonoize that I gave above.

Here attached the demos with Acousticas + SIR1 and Signaltonoize + Liquidsonics. That's my current piano work, recorded today, with preset Tanglewood (a bit early, is'nt it in September?) from Bricasti M7. The reverb is exagerated a lot for the demo purpose.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:15 am 
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Thanks! Sounds really nice and natural. :wink:

I downloaded the first link (not the one for stereo) already, but I think I'll get the other one later. Do you need both, or can the less sophisticated one be trashed so save space on disk?

Also, I gotta figure out how the plugin I found works...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:46 am 
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The zip file from signaltonoize will not open on Mac. :evil:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:55 am 
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OK, I've pretty much given up on the plugin I found. It doesn't seem to work in Audacity though it shows up in the effects menu. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:23 am 
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Quote:
I downloaded the first link (not the one for stereo) already, but I think I'll get the other one later. Do you need both, or can the less sophisticated one be trashed so save space on disk?


You need only one. If you don't worry working only with the single stereo IRs, you are done. Note that both IR sets works in stereo. A true stereo IR consisting in two stereo files, instead of one only, allows for generating two different stereo reverberation components, each one from a single channel of the stereo recording, which are summed. It's an audio purist approach, but one may not hear so much an improvement...

I did not succeeded also to make Audacity work with external plugins when I tested that some times ago. But it is most likely compatible...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:52 pm 
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Hi Didier,
your examples sound wonderfully, both concerning sound-quality and playing! You really have improved your rhythmic steadiness enourmously. It´s very good now! And you play this with such a great musical feeling, that I´m deeply touched.
I like this Tanglewood preset and will try it out with my next recording, though may be the reverberation is indeed a bit exaggerated. Thanks to you that I´m able to applicate all these interesting ambiences and reverberation-settings, some of them I like more some not so, and some are really wonderful. All in all this is a great treasure you have given to us! :!:

To Horrowitzian:
During my researches with Bricasti M7 in one folder I have found an installation-introduction for MAC, if you would like I could look for it a second time. (Not sure, if I will find it again.)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:40 pm 
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If you could find it again — and it's not the one I've tried already :lol: — that would be a big help if you could find it. But take your time. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Didier wrote:
Quote:
I downloaded the first link (not the one for stereo) already, but I think I'll get the other one later. Do you need both, or can the less sophisticated one be trashed so save space on disk?


You need only one. If you don't worry working only with the single stereo IRs, you are done. Note that both IR sets works in stereo. A true stereo IR consisting in two stereo files, instead of one only, allows for generating two different stereo reverberation components, each one from a single channel of the stereo recording, which are summed. It's an audio purist approach, but one may not hear so much an improvement...

I did not succeeded also to make Audacity work with external plugins when I tested that some times ago. But it is most likely compatible...


OK, thanks. The true stereo zip wouldn't unarchive anyway, so it's a moot point. I'll stick with the more basic one. Now to make a plugin work.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Didier, Andreas and Horowitz - I have also downloaded that AccousticasM7-1 zip file and also the SIR 1 zip file. Can one of you please tell me how to get them into Audacity? Andreas mentioned sticking it into a VST plug-in folder. Where is that folder? If someone could explain this to me, I would be very very grateful. (but please use simple terms!:wink:)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:40 pm 
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On a Mac, it will be under "your user account"<Library<Audio<Plug-ins, if you look in Finder. Or you could do a spotlight search.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Horowitzian wrote:
On a Mac, it will be under "your user account"<Library<Audio<Plug-ins, if you look in Finder. Or you could do a spotlight search.


What library? And what 'user account'? I don't have an account! Are we still talking about Audacity?
I am lost already. :? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:27 pm 
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You are on a Mac, right? :wink:

Open Finder by clicking on the two-faced icon on the extreme left of the dock. On the left part of the Finder window there should be some lists, Devices, Places, etc. Under Places, there should be an item labeled with your username, with a house icon next to it. Click that. Then locate the folder named "Library". Inside Library, select the folder "Audio". Then select the "Plug-ins" folder, and finally there should be a VST folder. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Horowitzian wrote:
You are on a Mac, right?


Nope - I'm on a PC.

Also, what does VST mean?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Then I can't help ya! :D

Steinberg's Virtual Studio Technology. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:40 pm 
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I just installed Audacity but did not succeed to make it work with SIR. The reason for that could be here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7873
:cry:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:46 pm 
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I saw some stuff yesterday while browsing the net that there really isn't any convolver that's compatible with Audacity right now. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:46 pm 
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I agree with this = :(

Thank you anyway, guys! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:53 pm 
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The good thing is that Audacity on the Mac has full access to the plugins that come with GarageBand. 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:54 pm 
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well, guess what? I normally use Wavepad to do all my editing stuff and it does have that VST plug-in thing! Yay!!!!! :D

Now I just have to figure out how to get these files/folders or whatever over to Wavepad. It's right now asking me for the DLLs folder and the VST plug-in. Those two things - are they the two zip files I downloaded? How do I transfer them?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:54 am 
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In case anyone is interested, I think I have done it. I have the DLL and the Acousticas things in my Wavepad program. Now all I have to do is learn how to use all this stuff!

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