hmmmm - well, beauty is in the eye (ear) of the beholder.

I couldn't get the op. 20 concerto or Prometheus onto my ipod, but I did just watch Prometheus on Youtube (played by Argerich).

I find it interesting to learn what people like and dislike - it sheds some light on their personality, I think - and that you think this piece is beautiful is very interesting! But I'm sorry to say that I don't. Maybe I'm defective or something, but I heard only about two or three little tidbits of pretty sounds. The rest was non-sense (to me). Guess this means that I should stick to Scriabin's two earlier periods, although I will do a little exploring before I totally rule it out.

I'll listen to the concerto later tonight or tomorrow. Maybe I'll like that better?

I think the Concerto is much easier to understand than Prometheus. That last one has many complex harmonies, with chords layered with fourths, "polykeys" parts, and is overall deeper.
There would be many pieces I'd learn before either of them though Just for listening, I personaly prefer the concerto for the same reasons.

Aryobrand, I've played most of Op. 8 (except maybe the one in thirds, and another "happy sparkling one", and it sure is great to get used to scriabin. But you know, even if you can play a piece technically well (or at least ok), sometimes you feel you don't really comprehend what is going on with the music. Most of the harder Op. 8 I feel like I'm letting my hands do the work, mechanically playing it ; I like to think while I play... I keep mentionning Rachmaninov, but that's what so great with him - it is quite easy to really understand what he means compared to Scriabin. Then again it doesn't give quite the same eerie feeling you get with Scriabin I like it when you just know how the phrase should sound, how the harmonies unfold, how the rhythm goes...
Anyways, I feel the Op. 8 is an absolute must, because it trains you with fast left hand jumps (I love the one with that G# E F# - G# D# E - G# C# D# etc octave left hand, n° 9 I think ? with the melody going G# in polyrhythm, and then you have yet another "calm after the storm" lyrical passage), voicing melodies with huge jumps and harmonies (I think it is hard to sound the n°12 melody convincingly for instance). There are a few tricky ones, I had troubles with the one that alternates octave and middle note (like one of Chopin's I think ?), not unlike the troubles you can have when starting Prokoviev Op. 2 n°1 (all great and moderatly hard etudes, if you like prokoviev).
I'll be learning the Chopin Etudes I don't know sometime soon, I feel that might be a prequisite to pretty much everything that came after... (I only play those with fast scale work, Op 10 4,(9), 12, and 25 11, 12). Still on the "I should learn" list, I think I'll have to read more on modes, because I hardly know anything about them (not playing much advanced Bach, no Debussy).

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

First of all, I began listening to the Argerich and had to turn it off. I'm on a super tight time schedule until at least Thursday, so can't spend too much time now, ... however this version seemed better.

Prometheus - Richter/Svetlanoff

I only had time to listen to the first 2:30 of it so I can't guarantee that Richter doesn't blow it at a later point in the song ... When I have time I'll find a better recording for you. It's like I was saying before that there are many more misinterpretations of Scriabin's works than accurate performances. Just compare the first two opening passages from these two versions and you'll understand what I mean.

Awful Prometheus! (Argerich)

Prometheus (assuming I can find an excellent recording of it) is a very transcendent kind of beauty. It's not in the same sense as the beauty of Op.20 (which is what the comment referred to), due to its intensity. It's a beauty that enflames!

Also, I was intrigued and curious by your statement:



What exactly is it that's creeping you out?

And lastly, (for now ) I will definitely listen to the recordings you've made, but it probably won't be until Friday or the weekend, but I will listen to them!

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

OMG!!! I hope it's not too late!!!



I just realized that you were referring to the Piano Sonatas!!! Please do NOT listen to any other performer's version of these before exploring them at the keyboard. I can almost guarantee that you will either hate them or think very little of them. To date I have never found a single recording of Scriabin's Piano Sonata No. 6-10 that I've felt was accurate, especially among professionals. There might be a recording of these, but I'm unaware of it, so as I stated before you should ALWAYS approach Scriabin from the sheet music first, and then listen to recordings. I'm not saying that you have to even learn how to play them even decently first, either. Just read the score, play out some of the melodies and chords, count out the rhythms from scratch, and listen to the music in your head first. It is soooo important to do this first - I can't emphasize this enough!!! Even with excellent recordings like Tania Stavreva's Piano Sonata No. 3, you should still read it from the score first until you understand what Scriabin was trying to say.

... I also just realized that maybe it's my insistence upon this that's freaking you out a bit, but this is utterly important. It is for this reason that I believe most people don't like Scriabin (those that don't like Scriabin). What they really don't like, I think, are the misinterpretations of Scriabin.

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

Ok, I’m listening to the Richter-Prometheus as I type this. And I have to say, it is better the second time around! The sound quality is better on this video too. But I will blame you if I have another bad dream tonight. Last night, I woke up my husband by screaming in my sleep. Giant, flying, scary-looking monkeys just like the kind in the Wizard of Oz were chasing me though some big old house. Seems I was the only person in the house and I think also in the whole town. Something like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. But instead of zombies coming to get me, it was those big monkeys! Man, that was soooo scary! So here I am listening to Prometheus again. What’s going to happen to me tonight, I wonder (and fear).

About the creeping out thing – I dunno…just the talk about mysticism, walking on the dark-side, Pink Floyd, whether I’m ready for this sort of thing, is I guess what I mean. I am curious, adventurous, mischievous, but also chickenous (haha – trying to keep words with ‘ous’ at the end – I mean I’m also a chicken) at the same time. But don’t worry – keep on keeping on; I’m with you so far. (Unless I have more weird dreams. I do need my beauty sleep.)

And no – I have not listened to any Sonatas yet. I think your advice about trying them out on the piano first is interesting. I would never have thought of that. So, ok – I’ll let you know when I have done that and also when I have listened to op. 20.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Flying monkeys, hunh? ... I'll have to meditate over the meaning of this and get back to you on the meaning. You can begin the analysis of your dreams by making sure that you write them down in great detail as soon as you wake up. Think about what the symbols mean to you, rather than just reading an interpretation in a psychology textbook. By thinking about your dreams after making a careful record of them, it will become easier over time to understand their messages.

BTW, I listened to the first movement of this version of Op.20 Piano Concerto - Nasedkin and it seems fairly decent. This might help with overcoming any fear reaction towards Scriabin. YouTube probably has the other 2 movements as well. This might be useful, too!

...
If the dreams continue (and even if they do, there's no reason to fear them - they're just images of your own subconscious mind - religiously stated: they're your Higher Self revealing yourself to yourself) try to picture yourself inside a bubble of sharp crystal, or some impenetrable substance. And if you're able, picture yourself in your mind armed with a sword (or a bazooka; your choice), and if the monkeys return summon your courage to stand up to them - draw power from the Goddess within you, that IS you. Do this right before you go to sleep. Then when you wake up, picture yourself completely entering back into your body as if it were a larger slip-on full body suit. (Like putting on gloves and feet-socks only for the whole body.) Let me know either here or in a private message/e-mail if anything unusual happens. Always write down anything of this nature as soon as you can - it would be a good idea to invest in a blank book/diary/journal for this purpose. This can be VERY useful.
...

The Op.20 shows a completely different side of Scriabin - his overflowing passion!!! After listening to this (preferably following along with the music, maybe the second time - you'll probably be blown away the first time ) you will begin to understand the depth of Scriabin's beauty. All of his songs contain this same passion, he just hides it under a different mask of tonality or structure, whether playful and mischevious, or languid and ecstatic, or ______...

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

Ok, I just listened to Op. 20.

Wow!!! Everything you said about it is right. It's so very romantic. I really enjoyed it. And I also followed along with the score. Thank you for providing the link to that. I don't know if I ever would have stumbled upon these pieces on my own, so I appreciate all you've helped me with here, Michael.

And I am amazed at how much Scriabin's style changed throughout his time. Makes me wonder if Chopin would have changed much had he lived longer.

...about dreams - I had no dream at all the night after I listened to Prometheus the second time, but I had a terrible one last night. Even scarier than the monkey one. Don't know why I am having such nightmares lately.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I was going to suggest to you for the first time you listened to Op.20 to light some candles and pour a couple of glasses of wine for you and your husband, then listen to it ... but wasn't sure if you would like Scriabin's Concerto so ... It is just absolutely beautiful - truly one of the most beautiful songs ever written (if played correctly ).

Not only is the Piano Concerto beautiful, but it's also one of Scriabin's most difficult pieces to play correctly, he uses a lot of subtle polyrhythms throughout the piece. Unfortunately many pianists just do their own editing job and replace the written rhythms with their own 'simplified' versions. Sometimes it makes me roll my eyes so much, my eyes hurt!

Also about the Prometheus ... since you've listened to both versions, go back and listen to just the first three minutes of both versions side-by-side. This will demonstrate to you the vast difference that it can make in someones interpretation of Scriabin's music

I don't think Scriabin's style or approach changed as much as most people think. Even up to the last of his compositions you can still find the deep passionate romanticism - it's just that if he had written something based on (say for example) the whole-tone scale, then Scriabin would immerse himself totally into the tonality of the whole-tone scale to find that same kind of passionate expression. However, if someone totally ignores what Scriabin wrote, then all phrasing, all dynamics, all touch and tone, all rhythm, even all melodies tend to get lost into a swirl of dispersion. Enough on that, since I'm starting to repeat myself, I think.

As for your dreams... it might not necessarily be the Scriabin music that's the cause of the dreams. A lot of times Scriabin's music can serve as a catalyst to bring out deeper subconscious issues, since he dealt with deep issues that spring from the subconscious. To demonstrate what I mean, try this little experiment (you may have done this before so humor me) ...

Go to your piano (it should be an acoustic, since it's important that the strings are able to vibrate freely), and without playing any notes press and hold down the sustain pedal (the right one). Now, while centering the tone as well as you can, sing out loud a single note. If the tone is centered upon the same pitch to which your piano is tuned, when you cease singing, the note should begin to vibrate the strings on its own. If not, then try again singing the pitch slowly higher or lower until you achieve this affect. You should notice that the note will cause the strings to vibrate fully when the pitch is sung at the same Hz to which the string has been tuned. If you continue in doing this exercise and get really really good at matching the exact pitch, you might also begin to be able to vibrate some of the strings for the harmonics of the tone at the same time (while singing only the single pitch).

... now (with this in mind), Scriabin's music can have a tendency to act in the same manner. Actually any composer that delves deeply into emotional subconscious strata will have a similar effect. The difference is that Scriabin immersed himself so completely that hearing his music played correctly will have a tendency to cause the 'strings' of your subconscious urges, issues, feelings to vibrate. If the performance is REALLY good then some of the overtones/harmonics might begin to vibrate as well.

Now that I've given this long-winded explanation for what I mean, let's get back to the subject of your dreams. The fact that you're having nightmares of late is indicating that there is some aspect of your life that's not quite right with you. You don't have to tell me (or anyone else for that matter) what is the issue, just try to make yourself aware it. This issue doesn't 'sit right' with you, and your subconscious mind is presenting that issue as a horde of giant monkeys chasing you. If I was having this dream, it might possibly be a Darwinian reference to the masses of humanity, and their ideology, or something along this line. However (and this is actually really important to understand), if you normally don't utilize and think about Darwin or evolution (etc) then this symbol (monkey horde) might mean something totally different to you (you did mention 'The Wizard of Oz', so that might be a good place to start analysis). This is what you should strive to understand. What do these symbols represent to you? Was the large house unknown to you, or had you been there before in previous dreams? What feelings did the house give you? Was it spooky, or elegant, or decrepit, etc? Think about the seasons. Was the dream in Winter, or Summer? What do these seasons mean to you? Spring usually means love to most people, whereas Winter usually means Christmas/Solstice/Saturnalia/etc and holidays to others. It is this collection of individualized symbols that your Higher Self is utilizing to attempt to make you "sit up and take notice" of some important message. Usually the more vehemently a dream affects you, the more important is its message.

One excellent source for further exploring some of these concepts is from the book Liber Aleph: The Book of Wisdom or Folly by Aleister Crowley, the Beast 666. He writes a few interesting and fairly clear sections upon the subject of dreams and dream interpretation. You should notice that these 'occult' interpretations of dreams are not dis-similar to psychological interpretations (cf. Sigmund Freud's The Interpretation of Dreams, or Carl Gustav Jung's works concerning the projection of the archetypes). I've posted two links which should lead to the same book in different formats. The first is a .pdf file that you would need Adobe Acrobat Reader to look at, the second can be accessed from any web browser. The .pdf has a table of contents with it and can be downloaded to your computer (by right clicking on a PC, etc - I think you know the procedure), whereas the .htm version is listed in long pages with chapters separated into groups. You should especially look at the sections/chapters that refer to dream interpretation which I've listed below each link.

Liber Aleph - pdf version

9. HOW ONE SHOULD CONSIDER ONE’S NATURE
10. ON DREAMS (ACCIDENTAL)
11. ON DREAMS (NATURAL)
12. ON DREAMS (CLOTHED WITH HORROR)
13. ON DREAMS (CONTINUATION)
14. ON DREAMS (THE KEY)
15. ON ASTRAL TRAVEL
16. ON THELEMIC CULT
17. ON THE KEY OF DREAMS

Liber Aleph - htm version

This version uses the original chapter titles (Greek letters with Latin Titles), so the sections would be under "Chapters alpha-omega". You can also search on "Somniis" which is "Dreams" in Latin.

{theta}
QUO MODO NATURA SUA EST LEGENDA.
... through ...
{pi}
DE CLAVICULA SOMNIORUM.

Let me know if you care to discuss the dreams any more or if you have any questions about the 666 materials, or if you just want to vent/etc. I'm rather enjoying our conversation here.

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

P.S.: Scriabin wrote his Second Piano Sonata, Op. 19 right before writing this and it is similar in style ... (although someone has already recorded it for Piano Society so you might want to contribute a Piano Sonata that nobody's recorded, yet. - I'm currently working on No.10 when I have time to practice (about once every two weeks ))

P.P.S.: The phenomenon of sympathetic vibration can be demonstrated with echoes and the like as well. When I was last in Pisa, Italia, there's a cathedral there whose acoustics are so 'precise' that you can sing a single note, then when you release that note it sustains for a while and you can sing a different pitch, and another, and another. In this way you can get whole chords going at the same time - singing by yourself!!! It's an amazing phenomenon.

My husband gets sort of tired of listening to piano music, so when I am serious about certain music, I listen to it by myself. That's how I prefer it, anyway. (with a glass of wine, of course!)


I've heard a pianist play some Chopin mazurkas terribly and altered so much that I had to shut off my computer. I literally could not stand it.


I get what you're saying here, really. I just can't put it into words right now.

ok, and now about that piano-singing-strings thing. When I put the damper pedal down and then sign a note, I hear that tone ringing clearly from within my piano. I have a grand with the lid fully open. So I sang many different pitches and heard all of them the same way. Then I even tried yodelling, and heard the whole yodel-chord clearly. Anything I sang rang out clearly inside my piano. Is that what you're talking about?

dreams - I will read that information you provided tomorrow. My eyes are half-mast right now and I'm going to bed. But I don't think my monkey dream had anything to do with Darwin, but the Wizard of Oz has always held a special interest to me in various ways. However, the monkeys in my dream were not black like in the movie, but were very light in color - their fur was very light toned. The house was not one I knew - it was an old mansion - in a state of disrepair with only a few furnishings left. It was bright daylight - sunlight streaming in through the windows and I was running through a large parlor when the monkeys were chasing me. It's still so vivid. So is the dream last night which had no monkeys, but real people - three goons who attacked me in a dark parking lot behind I think a Las Vegas casino. They threw me on the ground and then I woke up. (thankfully, very scary - I'm still a little shaky from that one).

ok, again - thanks for this new dream information. I'll read it tomorrow and will let you know if anything helps with the analysis.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.



Sheesh!! Can't you change out his music-appreciation chip-set or at least have it serviced? What I meant, but I guess I was dancing around the issue too much, was that the Opus 20 is perfect, shall we say, "mood" music ... I really really hope you get it this time ... ...


Please don't sign the notes on your piano!!! The ink will get all over your hands when you play creating a most untidy mess. Please sing the notes instead.


That's half of the equation. I was hoping that the piano might be slightly out of tune, or that you were an awful singer, cause now we have to modify the technique ...

What you should try to do is sing a note intentionally off-key - the worst job you can do (I'm already picturing in my mind, your husband running from the room, the cat burying its head under its paws, dogs in the neighbor's yard howling ...). Do this with the pedal down as before. The point is that if the note is not centred right to coincide with the tuned pitch, then its response (the amount of its vibration) should be much less. This was actually an exercise I learned back in high school playing the piano for the choirs. The singers could practice pitch control by slowly altering the pitch until they achieved the greatest response from the vibrating string(s). The more centred the tone is, the greater the response until if you're singing the note precisely at the same level of vibration as the string, you should begin to also hear some of the harmonic pitches as well. Basically by singing one note only, you can get four, five, maybe more strings all vibrating through sympathetic vibration. The reason why this exercise wasn't as plain was that you sang in-tune the first time (while autographing the keys), so try to intentionally sing off-key, then compare the response to the response while singing on-key. This was the point I was trying to make.

That Scriabin's music (or any composer's who wrote with deep passion, etc) tends to hit all the right pitches so that it sets up a system of sympathetic vibrations within your emotions and sometimes even deeper into the subconscious mind. (This is also the psychological reason why certain things tend to "set people off" more than others. If you find the right 'button' to push, some people will explode! ) What I'm thinking is that some of the fear reaction is combining with some other issue that's affecting your life right now, and Scriabin's music is making certain emotional 'strings' vibrate, having a tendency to amplify the original signal - the same way that the sounding board amplifies the vibrating strings. I should mention (just to make sure you understand me) that what I was referring to as "walking on the dark-side" was that, as you are probably aware, Scriabin was known as a Satanist or a blasphemer since he delved into the mystical side of reality. He himself was not really "dark" at all (as you can see from his music) many of his themes actually are immersed in light (e.g. Le Poeme Divin), I just like to poke fun at people who see the world in terms of only "light" and "dark". Scriabin was extreme technicolour! I didn't want to say this before, but the reason I wanted to make sure that it was truly your choice to begin the study of Scriabin was the following:

Back when I was in high school and at the University, I adored Chopin. He was one of my all time favourite composers - hands down. One of my "signature songs" was his "Raindrop Prelude" Op28 No15. Then I was introduced to the music of Scriabin. At first I wasn't really all that impressed with everything, since I was basing my opinion mostly upon the recordings of his music by other pianists. When I began to actually study his works from the exclusive point of view of only what He wrote on the score, my opinion of him slowly began to change drastically. I ended up totally immersing myself in his music, in his mindset, even in some of his ideals. Now, after having gone through the Scriabin transformation, where I can hear his music just by playing a few bars here and there from the score, my musical tastes have changed drastically. Sometimes some of the songs written by other composers that I used to absolutely adore, now seem flat, unimaginative, and trite to me. (and here's the part I was trying to spare you from) ... even some of the songs of Chopin of which I previously thought the world. Today if I want 'raindrops' I must promenade through a Jardin sous la pluie. The only things by Chopin I can listen to anymore are some of his ballades, and a few other pieces. I no longer have 'the patience' to go through many of his preludes and mazurkas and so forth since Scriabin had changed my point of view towards music so drastically. I was wanting to make sure that in case Scriabin had the same effect on you, you wouldn't come back at me blaming me for ruining Chopin for you. Scriabin doesn't necessarily affect everyone the same way, so this might not be an issue. I just had to make sure that it was your choice. There's nothing really scary or anything to really fear from Scriabin's music, it's just that sometimes it can have a deep and profound effect upon you, especially in terms of how you look at tonality and expression. Through the Mysterium, Scriabin was attempting to create a transcendent form of artistic expression which included not only sound, but light, and colour, and scent, and touch, and vibration, etc. You're probably aware of how Scriabin wanted to use even the clouds in the sky in his music. Scriabin was in search of a transcendent reality of divine natural ecstasy and brilliant scintillating joy... So you really don't need to fear Scriabin's music at all, it may change the top-ten list of your favourite music drastically, though.

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

It’s not his chip that likes to be serviced. Seriously, he hears me practicing everyday, and I also drag him to piano concerts in Chicago about every month. He’s not into classical music at all, so I give him credit for putting up with me and my diverse musical tastes. But when I am interested in learning about a piece of music, I don’t want him around, as I just want to concentrate on the music and not have to explain things. I guess it would be nice if I had a partner/friend who was interested in the same music and knowledgeable enough to know how to follow a score or wants to chill out with wine and listen to classical music with me. Ah, well…


I get it! See above response. But I will remember to try putting on this music next time the ‘mood’ strikes. Altogether, the concerto lasts about 20 minutes – plenty of time…


Cracks me up. I told you I was tired when I was writing that.

Continuing...

Well, I must not be doing the string-thing correctly. I tried everything – singing, humming, shouting, growling, meowing – anything I did rang out from inside my piano. Like it’s a cave. Or a big, echo-y cathedral. I hear everything still sounding inside the piano. But I don’t think it is the strings, because I one time stood up and held down the damper pedal and sang an A above middle C and I could touch the strings at the same time. When I did, the sound was still continuing, which means it was not coming from the strings because I ‘dampened’ them when I touched them. So, I don’t think I am making the strings vibrate at all, but only the sound board that is amplifying my sound when the dampers are lifted. (did any of that make sense?)


I think it’s normal to go through phases of being enthralled by certain composers. I’ve been into Chopin for probably the longest so far. I am currently learning and recording all of his mazurkas and I must say that I thoroughly enjoy when I get one down and then go onto the next one. Probably because I think they are all so different from one another. But I do admit there are some Chopin pieces I am tired of hearing, as well. (Don’t tell him that ) I still like watching the pros play Chopin in concert, but I don’t put up many Chopin books on my piano (except the Mazurkas) that much lately. Or course it’s not that I don’t like him anymore, but I need to get into different things constantly or I get bored.

And that brings me to my interest in Scriabin. For me, it’s simply a matter of playing something ‘new’. But of course, it also has to appeal to me enough for me to devote my time and energy. Granados is another one of my favorite composers because his music I think is very appealing. And much of it is playable. Plus, I love his life story. So far, I am intrigued by what we’ve discussed regarding Scriabin, and I am enjoying the pieces I recently learned and what I’m working on now. Will I become as passionate about Scriabin’s music as you are? Time will tell. Will it turn me off of Chopin? Currently, when I’m home alone, it’s dark outside, and a storm is moving in – I still do usually open a Chopin book, first. That seems to ground me in a way and settle my mind. I’ll be surprised if Scriabin one day becomes the man I turn to, but who knows…

Michael, I just put up another Scriabin piece - the Op.52, no. 1. I think you said you didn't like this one much, but I do. I like the harmonies a lot! But the rhythm was much harder to get down than I thought it'd be. I wrote in the counts, tapped my foot, used my metronome - all that and I'm still not positive I got it right. I'm already planning what my excuse will be if it turns out to be wrong - I'll just say that I was letting my 'free spirit' guide me, that's all. Which is actually sort of true - I did count the best I could but after awhile I played it as how I wanted it to go. Probably none of that make sense, and maybe I've committed a sin but umm....well that's all I can say about it.

Regarding other Scriabin pieces - I have not started another one yet. I still like the shorter pieces, but I need to go back to what you wrote previously to remind myself which pieces are good.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.



No, silly! I was being sarcastic. I was making fun of people who think that everything that Scriabin wrote above opus 30ish is only atonal noise. I guess if you have to explain a joke, it wasn't that funny ... Sheesh! ... ...

I actually LOVE Opus 52, the entire thing. It has some wonderful (what would later be called) "tasty" Jazz-style chords in it. I can hardly wait to hear your performance.

With this piece, you've now experienced Scriabin's first period and his semi-last period. I'm calling this 'semi-last period', since Opus 52 has a feel that's sort of in between his middle and last periods. I think you mentioned that you wanted to play something from each of his periods, which would leave the middle period (or his late final period, or both). I had previously suggested for you to look at some other pieces and right now (it's 4:00 am) I can't remember what they were ... Perhaps a bit later in the day I'll look these up and post them here, then I can listen to the Op.52, No. 1.

Until then ...

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand