I guess it is personnal indeed But in the end I think we both agree that overall pain is to be avoided ; we just have different thresholds for it I guess. I'm not injecting my hands with painkillers either you know I just feel that there is no way I can avoid some pain if I want to learn and acquire technique at a reasonable speed ; there's not only pain though, a warmed up hand is very pleasant to use, and for instance playing a Bach fugue after practice has a gentle tingling feeling exactly opposite to the pain of technique acquisition (which is mostly caused by bad wrist movements, lack of relaxation because of new material, and intensive strechs ; all those are problems solved by time and practice).

Thanks a lot Pianolady and Horowitzian for the book references, I'll be sure to check them out. Might have to get the Granados one ordered on the internet though, don't know if it's available in Paris'.

No problem!

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Something in this paragraph really bugs me ... Basically I think that the "pain" that Teddy's referring to is not what I would call "pain". Let me explain ... sometimes when I'm practicing something new that I've never played before, the piece will require some new unique combination of notes, or some new phrasing, or some such, that it will feel really awkward at first. Some of Czerny's exercises in "School of Velocity Op.299" are like that if you use the fingering exactly (as one should) [especially his repeated note study 4-3-2-1 on the same note in 32nd's up different scales, which might be a similar exercise to what someone was seeking]. It's not really painful in the sense of smashing your toe with a hammer (I couldn't use that analogy while referring to fingers) type of pain, it's more of a tired stressed-out kind of "pain". This "pain" I feel is not only good, but if you never get this type of "pain" then I think you're just not challenging yourself enough. This type of "pain" ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS goes away within a couple of hours. That's why I usually don't use the word "pain" to describe this feeling, I would just say that piece gave me a good warm-up.

Now the other type of "pain", which is pain that won't go away for weeks and sometimes months, and in some classic cases of certain composers became a new permanent resident in their hands and wrists; this other type of pain, definitely SHOULD be avoided at all costs. ... and this is where something just bugs me about your comments ... This real injurious type of pain is usually the result of mechanics working against the natural state of the hand, MUCH MUCH more often than as a result of vigourous practice (although that could still be possible, i.e. to injure the hands/wrists by overpractice). This technique of "free-fall" just made me gasp!!! One should NEVER NEVER NEVER need to lift the hands up high above the keyboard and slam them down onto the keys to achieve different effects - EVEN IF the hands are relaxed. Doing this would most certainly cause injury to the hands if one just happened to "land wrong" on the keys, or if they applied too much force, etc. I'm not saying that there is no reason to lift the hands completely off the keyboard, as during some slow legatissimo pieces I've been known to lift an arm above the level of my head on occasion, but that was almost always upon lifting the hand FROM completion of a phrase - never IN PREPARATION for a phrase. I personally think that one should seriously reconsider ANY KIND of "free fall" type motions when playing the piano. If one has properly prepared through daily practice even the most passionate and gregarious Bartok FFFFFF could be played without lifting the fingers more than 6-8 inches above the keyboard.

No offense to Jorge Bolet, but this technique sounds VERY dangerous to the hands. As my father the Engineer always used to say, "A finger can break with less than 10 pounds of pressure." or some such poundage, I forget exactly which ... the point is that structurally the finger is a relatively thin piece of bone tissue that if one were lifting their hands high above the head to slam them down on the keys, ... ... that really couldn't end well.

Now I'm sure that that's not what you were suggesting that anyone do, but I guess I was just being hyperaware of some beginner coming across the forum and saying "Neat. Look at this new technique I just learned." and end up crippled for life!!!

In summary, the "pain" of building the muscles of the fingers should definitely be embraced, but any type of unnatural structurally straining motion, as well as any "sprinting before stretching" should definitely be avoided at all costs. The first "good" type of pain can easily be achieved just by playing through the entire School of Velocity in one sitting (for many this would only take playing the first book in one sitting) while using the proper listed fingering. This would clearly demonstrate the different kinds of "pain".

... and now I feel that I'm starting to ramble again, so I hope my point was made.

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

Hi aryobrand! Thanks for your well-considered reply.

Well, I anticipated different opinions, and we have them. Teddy said:



"Hurts" is a strong word. It hurts enough that he thinks of the possibility of permanent damage to his hands ("injure", "Schumann"). Only Teddy can tell us what he actually meant by pain. As you have suggested, I'm sure he does not cry out with a loud "AYEEEE!!" (at least I hope not! ). But I read that as a warning. I can just imagine Schumann saying to Clara, "Oh don't worry about this contraption - of course I'm careful not to injure myself."

"Hurts" sounds to me like an even more serious experience than "feels strained".

I cannot conceive of any professional pianist who would ever say that pain is good in practice (I know that you don't think Teddy means "pain", but caution makes me assume that he does until he clarifies further), much less that he "persists with it even if it hurts". Discomfort, in the sense of awkwardness at a new passage - that lack of easy control - is very different, and I would never use the word "pain" to describe that feeling. You wrote:



I cannot imagine feeling uncomfortable (can we agree that anything described as "pain" is uncomfortable?) after-effects of a practice session for 2 hours!

I agree with what you said in a posted reply to me:



That is great advice, aryobrand! If not a change in fingering, then a change in mechanical approach. A player may feel dangerous strain when beginning the left hand of Chopin op. 10 no. 9 with Chopin's fingering (5-4-1-4-1), but may solve the problem while keeping that fingering by raising the wrist, as we have discussed.

If I feel stiff after not playing for a while, I relax as much as possible until it goes away. I cannot conceive of ever practicing by working through that feeling or worse. I would respectfully repeat:

"Pain" that "hurts" (not my words) plays no role whatever in my practice or playing, and I would strongly advise any pianist to find another way of working that does not call to mind those words.

As for the so-called "free-fall" of Bolet, it is one of many practice techniques (we were discussing practicing), not a playing technique, and neither is the "open hand" technique. I never suggested coming down on the keys as hard as humanly possible. As you wrote:

, and you were correct.

Still, it is for advanced students who have already acquired some finger strength, and know how to relax. You are quite right that it is not suited for beginners, less because of danger of injury than the beginner's lack of finger strength required for accuracy. I assumed that anyone who is working on Scriabin études is not a beginner. Still, bearing in mind, as you said, that this site is open to all levels of pianists, a word of advice, if not dire warning, directed towards beginners may be called for before suggesting such a practice technique here. The free-fall, and open hand technique are combined, in my own practice, with other techniques that involve close-key and softer playing. Neither freefall nor open hand produce anything that could even remotely be described as "pain" or even "tension" if done in a relaxed manner.

By the way, my use of the term "free-fall" is really a practice extension of a playing technique. Bolet did not use the words "free fall". But the expression seems to me to imply that little additional force is involved other than gravity. It has been advocated by many pedagogues, including Karl Leimer, who wrote:

"Bend the arm, keeping the elbow, wrist and fingers in a fixed position but free of stiffness. The fingers must be firmly set in order to strike the desired keys. The arm should fall loosely from the shoulder joint; the fingers should perform the function of aiming at the respective keys without unnecessary maneuvers.... The free fall and touch, which involve fixation, muscular action, firm strokes, flexible and relaxed arms, hands and fingers, can come into their own under one condition only, that is, if fatigue is never prevalent. Where fatigue begins, technique ends."

In near-conclusion, you mentioned that "good pain" can be achieved by playing the entire School of Velocity straight through (personally, I would feel more danger of mental than physical pain if I did that!). On the subject of beginners who read these posts, I would say that the mere mention of such a thing as "good pain", whatever it may mean to you, is a dangerous concept. I cannot imagine that any known pedagogue would say such a thing. If you can show me an example, I would be astonished, not that I am dismissing the possibility outright! Most pedagogues I have read suggest immediately stopping at the first sign of pain or tension, not working through it for the purpose of reaping the benefits of this "good pain". I could easily be wrong in this, but I need to see it. It does "take all kinds" though, so chances are that some known quantity has previously suggested this approach. I'd just love to know who! And then, all I could say is: "I disagree".

"Awkwardness", "weakness", "lack of control", "stiffness" that requires warming up - these things I know. But "good pain" or positive, result-producing tension are foreign to me. I suspect (and hope) that all this boils down to semantics!

In the end, no two pianists work in the same way. It is a certainty that personal practice or playing techniques of some will seem ridiculous and useless, or even dangerous to others. I am merely expressing a personal opinion here.... that "pain" (as opposed to a transitory "tension" or "fatigue") of any type or degree has no place in my practice or playing, and I certainly do not feel that I am, as you suggested, "not challenging myself enough" because I choose not to inflict discomfort upon myself during practice! I assure you that there are quite enough challenges in learning to play difficult music well without adding the challenge of withstanding self-inflicted pain. If it works for you, what can I say but that I chose another path?

I advise on the basis of my beliefs, as would any teacher. If Teddy's "pain" and "hurt" were not clearly expressed to reflect his actual experience, I still would rather err on the side of caution in my suggestions. It would be irresponsible not to take him at his word, lacking further elucidation from him.

I would add that discussions on a message board are susceptible to misinterpretation, as they do not allow the instant corrections and adjustments in communication that personal discussions allow, whether in descriptions of experiences, or in clarity of meaning in general.

WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!!

THE FOLLOWING POST WAS WRITTEN BY A MADMAN WHO HIMSELF HAS SUFFERED FROM
INJURIES TO THE HANDS FROM HIS EXTREME APPROACH TOWARDS PRACTICE. IT WAS
ALSO WRITTEN UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT ALL WHO READ IT WILL NOT TAKE
ANYTHING TOO SERIOUSLY ABOUT IT.

WE FURTHERMORE STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT ONE CONSULT FIRST WITH A DULY
LICENSED AND CERTIFIED PEDAGOGUE CONCERNING ANY AND ALL PRACTICES
CONTAINED HEREIN. ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT SOME OF THE THINGS
DISCUSSED MIGHT REALLY REALLY DISGUST SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE
A BIT SQUEAMISH, SO IF YOU CAN'T STAND FINGERNAILS ON A CHALKBOARD THEN
DO NOT READ THIS POST. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, FOOLISH MORTALS.

OH YEAH, ...

THE VIEWS REPRESENTED IN THE FOLLOWING POST DO NOT NECESSARILY
REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF PIANO SOCIETY OR ANY OF ITS OTHER MEMBERS, AND FURTHER
ASSUMES NO LIABILITY FOR ANYTHING IMPLIED, SUGGESTED, OR OTHERWISE, ETC ETC ETC

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.





Sometimes after playing through something as vigorous as Rachmaninoff's First Piano Sonata followed immediately by his Second Piano Sonata, I must get up from the bench just to shake out the "pain" in my hands. Sometimes this "pain" even persists for quite a while as I take a break and try to do something else (after wiping away all the sweat, tears, blood, etc). Back in my early twenties I can remember more than once ripping open one of my fingers in an abrasion from a sharp cracked corner of an ivory key that left blood dripping and trickling all over the keyboard, yet still I played on. Even today sometimes the edge of a rusty hinge or somesuch will be quite painful when scraped against while playing, that I'll usually just ignore. Not to mention when an untrimmed 1/8"+ fingernail (cf. other thread on "Nail Care") happens to catch sideways between two notes during a vivace passage and tears away a little from the flesh. All of these are examples of pain that occurs during practice that goes away within a couple of hours. Yet since we were discussing muscular pain (I think) only the first one of these examples need be considered further.

As one begins to play songs of longer and longer duration, he will necessarily need to continue to build up endurance and stamina as well. This was what I meant when I said good pain. As long as no muscle tissue is torn, and no bones have been splintered or cracked, let alone fingernails ripped from the flesh, then the pain that one can sometimes feel after an especially vigorous practice session should cause no great long-term injury. Obviously if someone pushes themselves too hard or too far all at once (or without stretching or shaking out the tension beforehand), they might cause the muscles to rip away from the attachments which can cause permanent damage. This tearing of muscle tissue is the main concern that I would have with trying to overdue one's practicing. When one overexerts themselves, the pain will stay with you for weeks if not months, and THIS is the type of pain that one should avoid AT ALL COSTS.

There becomes a way to differentiate between the two levels of exertion, unfortunately, only after you've either been very lucky once, or after you're totally screwed. My Bartok injury was very lucky, Schumann was screwed. The best advice that I could give (as a non-pedagogue), would be to err on the side of caution, but sometimes even artists and musicians lose track of where their bodies are at concerning overexertion. Some helpful advice might be to study human anatomy to learn the internal structure of the hand ("Gray's Anatomy of the Human Body", the book from 1918, NOT the TV series, is a great resource), and other advice might be to practice Yoga to become more aware of just how each part of your body feels as you play. I do realize however that during performance sometimes that last thing one thinks about is how the body feels. For example, once when I was channeling the dead spirit of Mozart, he just kept demanding "schneller noch, schneller noch" ("faster, faster"), and even though at the time I was playing the passage to the fastest of my ability, he still DEMANDED more! So comply I did, just to keep his spirit from drifting back into the mists. Luckily there was no injury from that incident, but at the time I was just so psyched to be getting a lesson from Mozart that worries about how my body felt at the time were totally inconsequential to me.

The point that I guess I'm trying to make is that, I can completely relate to someone feeling fatigued from building up the muscles in the hand; for without toned musculature, it would become near impossible for one to play any kind of marathon sessions or lengthy pieces which naturally includes many of the world's greatest pieces. But this type of pain is VERY different from structural damage that can't be easily repaired, and cuts short one's ability to perform which almost always happens by sharp movements such as an untrained "free-fall", or by unnatural twisting or dislocation, or muscular tears from working out too hard without stretching first. I'm sure that someone will misinterpret this so ...



__________ _____________________

But didn't someone tell you ... We're all mad here!!!

______________ _____ __________

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

Michael, I just want to say that I really enjoy your posts!

(And can you please tell me how to channel Chopin?)

Aryobrand, as I suspected, it's mostly semantics.



or immediately after feeling discomfort?



This is exactly what I have been saying all along. We are both talking about overexertion. What you call pain, I call transitory tension, which is a normal part of technical development and super-repetitive daily practice. Perhaps that is what Teddy meant (remember Teddy? ). My concern about his post was his statement that he "works through it even though it hurts". I stop as soon as I **begin** to feel it. I don't think, "ah, here comes the good pain... I'll keep going for another 10 minutes". What Teddy said sounded dangerously close to that. My only uncertainty about his post was about knowing when to stop. Does he really? Do we? I believe, as you also believe, that working too long even while experiencing this non-traumatic tension can become damaging. I "err on the side of caution" (is this a new Piano Society stock phrase?) and stop. I still have trouble with your "2-hour pain limit" But, I'm me, not you.

Yeah, I can be hyper-serious when I'm not being idiotic (you may think "at the same time as ..."). Thanks for the balance!! Your introduction made me laugh out loud!

By the way, what happened to your hand? You mentioned Bartok. Can you describe the cause and symptoms? I'm very interested.

James

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.



Part of my point was that sometimes I just work through the pain as well. For example, when playing through an entire book at one sitting of Czerny or somesuch, about the sixth through eighth exercise through I will end up looking for passages where there is no right hand motion just to shake out the tension from my right hand while continuing to play the left hand. Same for the other way around if it's my left hand that's beginning to experience transitory tension. I know from past experience that this technique is HIGHLY risky, but due to previous experiences I can pretty much gauge if the level of tension is TOO high to continue or not. If I sense that there is just too much tension at that moment I will usually stop for one-half hour to an hour, then return to practice if I feel up to it. Like I said above this technique is HIGHLY risky, and I should know better by now, but ... ah, well.



I probably had developed such a high pain threshold from my previous studies into body-building, back when I was much younger. Through the techniques of working out (in a gym), I came to notice the different levels of pain that one experiences. This is why even though I was trying to avoid using the phrase "working out too hard without stretching first", I finally could state my point in no other way. You get a feel for what the muscle is doing when you work with pushing them to their limits. Although I would never even THINK of pushing the muscles of my hand to those kind of extremes ("strip sets", "Haney burns", etc), the fundamental conscious feeling of muscular tension is still present. Obviously someone who has not had a lot of exposure to long hours of muscular pain might have some difficulties in gauging the level of tension, i.e. as to its recoverability or otherwise; and therefore the best policy should remain "err on the side of caution".



Well, the cause of this temporary injury was my own stupidity. The background for my stupidity was working on a piece that I had never played before "Allegro Barbaro" by Bartok. If you're familiar with it he varies the intensities considerably at one point going from a pppp to a f sff. The trouble that I had was that I had never really done a lot of work with as many octaves and wide intervals before, and so naturally the muscles in my hand were not up to the task of playing this piece "fully" yet. In a rush to try to get a recording out, I pushed myself way too hard and coming down on a sff, my right hand just went ZAP like an electric shock almost. Being "inspired" at the time , of course I kept going to finish the song (like a total idiot), then when I finished I didn't really feel the pain that much. Owing to my previous experiences I knew that I MUST stop at that point, and ended the practice session with lots of hand massage and stretching. I thought everything would be fine, but for about the next two to three months every time I tried to play anything above a mf with the right hand I would receive a shock of pain. It's back to normal now (or what can be thought of as normal for me ), so I usually don't have much trouble and I count myself very, VERY lucky.

Because of that incident I will NEVER even sit at a piano bench with out slowly stretching out the muscles in my hands and shaking out any tension that's there, ... although sometimes I still do love a marathon session.

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.



Hey Monica, and thanks!

I recall that you've asked this question before and wasn't sure if you were just joking around or if you were serious or not. I've actually thought of answering this question before, but I'm just kind of unsure of how to answer. I'm definitely NOT ignoring you (although it might have seemed like that due to the non-response), I'll just have to try to think about how to answer.
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.
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For me ... I have to work myself into the proper trance-state for at least a month before doing any kind of deep spiritual work with visions or converse with the spirit world. You see I live somewhat of a double life, much of the time (and unfortunately MOST of time recently) I have to maintain the intellect-centred 9 to 5 mentality just to be able to interact properly with the 9 to 5 type world. In order to get into altered states of consciousness (where such experiences take place) takes some preparation. 666 (Aleister Crowley) often said "Enflame Thyself with Prayer", and that gives a good general idea of how to reach the first stage. As to the subsequent levels, I'll have to think about how to explain it more deeply, as, if I tell you just to call them forth, it probably won't mean to you what I mean it to mean, you know what I mean? Fortunately for me, and oft times unfortunately as well, I've had and received visions and glimpses into the other worlds since I was a little boy, and that also includes sometimes seeing the spirits of the deceased. Many times the rest of the family are off at a funeral due to a death in the family, but the deceased is actually sitting with me talking, wondering "Why are they all so sad, it's great over here."

At least for me, there's usually no need for sacrifices and graveyard fieldtrips, although the fieldtrips can be fun, too. Let me ponder the question a bit and think if I can explain it later in better terms... Sorry for not being of much help.

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

Hi aryobrand,

Your description of your injury - how you got it and its effect - is the most valuable part of this whole discussion.

By the way, we have another common interest. I collect old manuscripts of practical kabbalah, mostly in Hebrew, and some Arabic. I've read Crowley on gematria, etc. I forget the book... is it "777", or is that just a part of it? He explained the commonly-used techniques of letter manipulation. I read Eliphas Levi, Papus, Waite, Mathers, etc. (some earlier writers) as a teen, but my interest in "Magick" turned to traditional "Magic" - the semitic variety. Now I collect and translate books of segulot, refuot, kameot, etc. as a "hobby". Here's a couple of pages of a manuscript in my collection, from late 17th - early 18th century Europe. The content will doubtless look familiar to you. I also compose and write amulets (kame'ot) on parchment for people.

Nice to meet you, and be careful out there!

James

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Alas... I feel that we are of opposite schools ...



No matter, ... if we both love Scriabin.

Love is the law, love under will.
Aryobrand

P.S. I've also added some other information under the "Composing" sub-forum in the Thread entitled Scriabin's Harmony

Well, we've certainly made a beautiful webpage together!

Wow – I am just blown away here. Both of your interests (Michael and James) are very interesting! I’ve only dabbled in some of these things for a project I was working on but have always felt that if I had more time, I’d like to study it more.

Michael – I am serious. I just wasn’t sure if you were. I’ve read books and things and attempted to go into that ‘special’ place in my mind so that I can ‘receive’ visits from certain people, but I lack patience and more thorough knowledge of how to actually get into that state of being so it never worked. And I’m sure I would faint if Chopin actually did come to me, but I’d be ready for him the next time. So if you think that you could possibly write down some instructions which I could try, I’d be very grateful. I am most of the time very bored with my everyday life so I could use the diversion. It’s ok if you think I am being ridiculous and there is no chance that it could work for me. But if you do, then perhaps you may want to continue this conversation in private? You can email me or send me private messages here on the forum. Whatever you want is fine with me. But I just thought of something else: When Mozart visited you, were you able to ask him questions? You know where I’m going with this….you connect with Chopin and then read him the list of questions I’ve given you.

See my post there. (And I knew you would recognize the ms. page with "angel writing".)

My god, i'd just like to give both of you a hug. You know we could just start a topic in the general section about babbling religions. We could pull our hair out, wet our pants with laughter, and maybe even scream blasphemy while clutching garlic!(Oh dear god, do i love garlic...)