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 Post subject: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:14 pm 
Dear piano friends,

i've got a question. I'm exercising the Chopin etudes at the moment. I would like to ask you, if there's a best way to bring the particular etudes in a better order to learn them more efficiantly ? I know it depends on the individual situation of every piano player. But, does a kind of "common sense" exist between piano educationalists ?
THX for your answers in advance ! :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:41 am 
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IMO, the most logical order for ANY pianist to take in learning Chopin études is to begin with the ones that are easiest for you. You can figure that out by sight-reading through all of them (highly recommended) and getting a feel for their difficulty relative to your comfort zones, or you can take the word of everyone else on which ones are easiest (purely relative term when dealing with those two sets). The easier études will polish the techniques you were already somewhat comfortable with, and then you can move on to techniques you have a bit more difficulty with, saving the most challenging for last.

Learning them in the order they're published probably makes the least sense of any order you could choose.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:44 am 
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Quote:
does a kind of "common sense" exist between piano educationalists?


Voltaire said "Common sense is the least common of all." With that in mind, "Easy" is relative term - the etudes that seem easier technically are more difficult musically, and vice versa. The perceived difficulty of the etudes varies among different individuals, depending on your agility, strength, and span. I am not sure if there is a consensus among the conservatory level members for the etudes, but all I know is that you should first learn several of the Preludes, before tackling the etudes. More or less, here are the Etudes in order of increasing difficulty (for my hands):

-Op. 25, No. 9 in G-flat Major, "Butterfly"
-Op. 10, No. 9 in F minor
-Op. 10, No. 3 in E Major
-Op. 10, No. 5 in G-flat Major, "Black-Key"
-Op. 25, No. 1 in A-flat Major, "Aeolian"
-Op. 10, No. 12 in C minor, "Revolutionary"
-Op. 10, No. 1 in C Major
-Op. 25, No. 7 in C-sharp minor
-Op. 25, No. 12 in C minor, "Ocean"
-Op. 10, No. 4 in C-sharp minor

You may know this already, just remember to move your arm across to guide you to reach any arpeggios, and develop a relaxed and flexible shoulder. Otherwise = tendonitis + anti-inflammatory drugs or worse...

May the Force be with you when playing Chopin Etudes!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Hmm, everybody forgets about the 10/6 in E-flat minor. That's the easiest by far.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Hmm, everybody forgets about the 10/6 in E-flat minor. That's the easiest by far.


Perhaps from a technical standpoint, but take a pianist who isn't so strong of a music reader and this etude turns into a morass of accidentals! :lol:

Abby Whiteside wrote some good stuff on the Chopin Etudes; you should look her up.

Pete


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:33 pm 
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beachdude wrote:
Dear piano friends,

i've got a question. I'm exercising the Chopin etudes at the moment. I would like to ask you, if there's a best way to bring the particular etudes in a better order to learn them more efficiantly ? I know it depends on the individual situation of every piano player. But, does a kind of "common sense" exist between piano educationalists ?
THX for your answers in advance ! :wink:


I strongly suggest thoroughly learning the Preludes, before venturing to the etudes! I don't mean to have all of opus 28 note perfect and world-class level; just make sure you've put in the necessary time (a few years, IMO) to have reasonably mastered the Preludes.

After you've done that, it should be abundantly clear as to the order in which to learn the Etudes. Also, they will be FAR easier on your playing mechanism than if you jump in cold-turkey.

Do you play the Preludes?

Pete


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:05 pm 
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PJF wrote:
Terez wrote:
Hmm, everybody forgets about the 10/6 in E-flat minor. That's the easiest by far.


Perhaps from a technical standpoint, but take a pianist who isn't so strong of a music reader and this etude turns into a morass of accidentals! :lol:

Sure, but the 10/4 was on that list, and the middle section of that is hardly easy reading (I always have to look at the keys more than the page in that section or I get confused, lol). I love it when Chopin modulates to enharmonic keys via accidentals. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:21 pm 
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I think the most difficult Chopin etude is Op. 25/6. Just HELL.

-Mikhail Kaykov


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Megabump ! It makes little sense to reply to a 15-month old posting. The original poster is no longer even here, presumably removed from the forum as his/her username is Anonymous.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:56 am 
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I found 25/6 to be easier than many. And hush Chris; there's no such thing as an outdated discussion on Chopin etudes. :wink: (Says the girl who shows up after having been absent a few months herself.)

I am working on 25/11 now; my teacher insists it's the hardest of all the etudes, but I disagree. I think 25/12 is more difficult simply because the technique is so consistent and tiring. 25/11 changes technique every four bars or so, to the variety makes it easier for me to play without tension. I had the same problem with 25/1 as I had with 25/12.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:13 am 
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88man wrote:
More or less, here are the Etudes in order of increasing difficulty (for my hands):

-Op. 25, No. 9 in G-flat Major, "Butterfly"
-Op. 10, No. 9 in F minor
-Op. 10, No. 3 in E Major
-Op. 10, No. 5 in G-flat Major, "Black-Key"
-Op. 25, No. 1 in A-flat Major, "Aeolian"
-Op. 10, No. 12 in C minor, "Revolutionary"
-Op. 10, No. 1 in C Major
-Op. 25, No. 7 in C-sharp minor
-Op. 25, No. 12 in C minor, "Ocean"
-Op. 10, No. 4 in C-sharp minor


The more I look at this list, the more strange it seems to me. And I know that 88man was speaking of his hands specifically, but it still seems strange. This is roughly how I would order them, from easiest to most difficult, for my hands (leaving out a few I have not played enough to judge):

10/6 - E-flat minor
25/7 - C-sharp minor (cello)
10/5 - G-flat major (black keys)
25/9 - G-flat major (butterfly)
10/3 - E major
25/10 - B minor (octaves)
10/12 - C minor (revolutionary)
10/7 - C major (repeated notes)
10/9 - F minor (wide left hand!)
10/8 - F major (LH melody, RH runs)
25/1 - A-flat major (aeolian harp)
10/1 - C major (RH arpeggios)
25/6 - G-sharp minor (thirds)
10/2 - A minor (chromatic)
25/11 - A minor (winter wind)
25/12 - C minor (ocean)
25/4 - A minor (LH jumps from hell)
10/4 - C-sharp minor
10/11 - E-flat major (ROLLS! BIG, KEYBOARD-SPANNING ROLLS IN BOTH HANDS.)

I left out 10/10, 25/2, 25/3, 25/8, and 25/5.

(Edited because I realized I mixed up 10/4 and 25/4 - also I moved 10/2 and 25/6 up the list since I haven't gotten either to performance tempo and others think they are very difficult.)

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Last edited by Terez on Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:56 pm 
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In no way is the Revolutionary more difficult than the Harp.

25/9
10/6
10/3
10/12
10/9
10/5
12/1
25/1
25/11

That's all I've studied of them thus far, and the last two I didn't finish (yet).

I can't picture one part of the Revolutionary that should take more than a day or two to understand. It's all rudiments and stamina... The middle? I learned all but the middle in a week, and give or take another week and half for the middle section with clean transitions.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:52 pm 
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I am also working on 25/1 and 25/11 right now...I just played 25/1 for a jury but it needs some improvement, and I think I might play it for a coming recital. I also might play 25/ 10-12 instead, but I am reluctant to put anything at all on the program after 25/11. When you play Chopin etudes in a group, no one claps until they're all done, and it would just be too weird to play 25/11 without applause. :lol:

But you think 25/9 is easier than 10/6? Really? I think 10/6 is the easiest by far, to the point where it wouldn't matter what sort of technically difficulties are easy for the individual pianist. Yes, it has some difficulties, but they're really not comparable to anything else in either 10 or 25.

Also, by 12/1 I guess you meant 10/1. I would think it's harder than 25/1, but I've never really worked on 10/1 so I couldn't say.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:09 pm 
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Maybe it's just my problems with grace notes, but (yes, I meant 10/1) I found 25/1 to be a real difficulty. The butterfly is a matter of figuring out the chord progression, and the pattern is all there for you. Meh, I don't know any pianists at my school (which is by far, NOT a school of music - 13 majors, 50+ minors, I was the only piano major that graduated in 2k7) that doesn't know it.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Quote:
The more I look at this list, the more strange it seems to me. And I know that 88man was speaking of his hands specifically, but it still seems strange. This is roughly how I would order them, from easiest to most difficult, for my hands...
Hi Terez, I bet I've been away from PS longer than you have?! :lol: The original poster was asking if there was an academic order of difficulty for the etudes. My list was a recollection of the chronology in which I learned the Etudes when taking lessons during high school and early college. I just looked back at 20 year old recital programs to compare the chronology of Etudes among 3 different pupils, and the list seems more or less consistent... Ah, memory lane :) I only listed the one's I learned, and I haven't learned any new since college when I stopped taking lessons, so it's not a complete list as yours...

You must be having so much fun learning 25/11...... NOT! :P They say it's the most devilish to play. I don't envy you having to learn all these etudes, but I can respect you for taking on the challenge of doing so. I looked over your list, I would place 10/2 Am and 25/6 G#m in the most difficult category for my hands. Wow! You must have very agile fingers?... 25/12 and 25/1 are not difficult once you start learning them, it's just an endurance issue. Pssst: Finger push ups help! :wink: But, if your piano's action is stiff, you may run out of steam fast. Playing these etudes you have to be both a good sprinter and a good marathon runner.

BTW, why don't you post any recordings of this great repertoire?... I'd love to hear more Chopin Etudes on PS...

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:56 am 
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88man wrote:
You must be having so much fun learning 25/11...... NOT! :P They say it's the most devilish to play.

I suppose I can see why. It's also very, very, VERY satisfying to play, at well below performance tempo. Very rewarding work, and I have to fight myself to keep from practicing 5 or 6 hours every day on it. Chopin said no more than 3! :lol: But I would say that 10/4 is the most 'devlish'. There are a few I think are more difficult than 25/11 obviously, but I think that some might agree that 10/4 is one of them. 25/11 has a sense of gravity, perfect weights and balances, that 10/4 does not have IMO. That is what makes it more difficult for me.

88man wrote:
I don't envy you having to learn all these etudes, but I can respect you for taking on the challenge of doing so. I looked over your list, I would place 10/2 Am and 25/6 G#m in the most difficult category for my hands. Wow! You must have very agile fingers?

Not really. I have actually worked on 25/6 and I think it's not so difficult as many others, even though I didn't quite get it to performance tempo. I am not very good. :lol: But Alfie and I have been arguing about 10/2 in email, and since I have never really worked hard on this one, I will have to concede that I probably have no idea what I am talking about.

88man wrote:
25/12 and 25/1 are not difficult once you start learning them, it's just an endurance issue. Pssst: Finger push ups help! :wink:

I am not so sure any more that endurance is exactly the right word for what these two require. I think that the arm/wrist/finger technique must be just exactly so, and if it's not, then the tension will cause damage whether or not your 'endurance' is good. I am still thinking of peppering my senior recital with several from op. 25; probably 1, 6, 11, and 12, but I don't think I will play them as a group. Probably open the program with 25/1, then play maybe some Debussy and a Beethoven sonata, and end the first half with 25/11. Then open the second half with 25/6, then play the Bach c minor partita, then end with 25/12. If I can do it.

Quote:
But, if your piano's action is stiff, you may run out of steam fast.

I have a piano to practice on in my teacher's office - a Kawai that's been reworked a lot - that is wonderfully fluid and delicate. Can't get a sound out of it, but I imagine it's similar to the sort of piano that Chopin loved. I prefer playing on the Steinway in the recital hall of course - I love that sound - but I try not to treat it as a practice piano too often. It makes me feel guilty. There is another piano in my teacher's office - a Howard, also heavily reworked - that has stiff action, and my teacher uses it to practice because it makes performance easier, but I can't do it. Plus, she has hand injuries, and she concedes that it's probably because she's always favored practice pianos with stiff action.

88man wrote:
BTW, why don't you post any recordings of this great repertoire?... I'd love to hear more Chopin Etudes on PS...

I don't have any recording equipment. Maybe one day I can afford some, and then I will record the ones I have worked on. I might play 25/11 for recital class, and if I do, there will be a recording, but the sound will probably not be all that great, and since it's live (in front of a few hundred music students) there is bound to be an error or three that I just can't live with, lol. But I will probably post it in the general forum for the curious, as usual.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:05 am 
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Op31n2 wrote:
Maybe it's just my problems with grace notes, but (yes, I meant 10/1) I found 25/1 to be a real difficulty. The butterfly is a matter of figuring out the chord progression, and the pattern is all there for you. Meh, I don't know any pianists at my school (which is by far, NOT a school of music - 13 majors, 50+ minors, I was the only piano major that graduated in 2k7) that doesn't know it.

Oh, I agree that 25/1 is much more difficult than 25/9 (even though a friend of mine who is playing all of Op. 25 thinks that even 25/9 is difficult because the pattern is tiring, and the stretching). I would just disagree that 10/6 is more difficult than 25/9; I don't see how anyone could argue that any of the etudes is less difficult in terms of technique than 10/6. Yes, it requires some clever fingering (which is given for you!), and musical sensitivity, but they all do. Yes, it has some weird accidentals, but so do many of the others, and also, reading accidentals is nothing compared to what is required in the other 23 etudes in terms of technique.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:45 pm 
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Yes Terez, 10/4 and 25/11 are both devilish to play at tempo. You know you're in for a treat when the tempo is marked 'Presto con fuoco!' Practicing 5 to 6 hours a day is remarkable dedication. I've often wondered how long one chooses or needs to practice. Perhaps it may depend on your aims in music: Performance or Teaching?... When growing up, it seemed I had all the time to practice, but I didn't have a great piano. The biggest tease of my life is having a gorgeous Steinway B, but not having time to practice 1 hour a week... Hopefully at 40, I can work a 4-day schedule and play more music?!... I am optimistic! :D

Terez wrote:
Quote:
I am not so sure any more that endurance is exactly the right word for what these two require. I think that the arm/wrist/finger technique must be just exactly so, and if it's not, then the tension will cause damage whether or not your 'endurance' is good.
You're right, I used the word 'endurance' loosely to describe the cumulative effects of repetition on tension when playing Etudes. As far as finger strength exercises go, one can easily do finger push ups by leaning against a wall to start. My thought is that once you develop finger strength only up to a point, you can decrease the overall tension slightly, and hence increase 'endurance.' Gearing up for an Etude marathon is all about tension and release (relaxation) cycles, arm/wrist height, back position, chair height, gravity, etc. This reminds me of a discussion I had about tendon physiology and injury (9th thread down): viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4164&start=0

Terez wrote:
Quote:
I am still thinking of peppering my senior recital with several from op. 25; probably 1, 6, 11, and 12, but I don't think I will play them as a group. Probably open the program with 25/1, then play maybe some Debussy and a Beethoven sonata, and end the first half with 25/11. Then open the second half with 25/6, then play the Bach c minor partita, then end with 25/12. If I can do it.
That's a quite a bit of hot pepper on your plate!... Great, when will the tickets go on sale?... Most of the Etudes you mentioned are tension builders. Perhaps it may look better to play one less Etude in order to keep the Etudes as a group? However, the order you mentioned can certainly work too. In any case, good luck in your challenging program!

George

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:40 am 
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88man wrote:
Great, when will the tickets go on sale?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Super-bump. I just figured I'd see if anyone else felt like talking about Chopin etudes. I just started working on 10/1 yesterday, which I've never tried to play before. I have always been disparaging of this etude in comparison to others, because I always found it relatively uninteresting musically, but after two days I'm starting to see why people like working on it so much.

Also working on these (some of them I have been playing for a while):

10/2
10/3
10/4
10/6
25/1
25/6
25/7
25/11
25/12

I might also try 10/8, 10/9 ,10/11 and 10/12, and maybe also 25/10. Not sure yet. Since my recital requirements are complete, I don't have to work on anything else right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:14 am 
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I sense a Complete Set in the making :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:23 pm 
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techneut wrote:
I sense a Complete Set in the making :D

haha, maybe one day. I thought about it, but for now I'd rather work on the best etudes in both sets rather than one complete set. There's no way I could make myself practice 25/2-5 when I could do 10/1-4 instead, etc. And everyone says 10/5 is really easy but I have never liked it much, and it seems really hard to me. Was also happy to discover that Chopin himself didn't like 10/5 much; when he discovered that Clara Schumann was going to play it at a concert, he said she would have been better off playing nothing at all. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Or, you could try something else than Chopin and Bach for once. You know, broaden your horizons a bit ? There are other composers out there....

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Yes, like Granados! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:00 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Or, you could try something else than Chopin and Bach for once. You know, broaden your horizons a bit ? There are other composers out there....

You say that as if I've never tried other composers before. I know there are other composers out there; I just don't like them as much as Bach and Chopin. At least I have good taste.

Monica - I have liked some of the Granados stuff you've posted. But I like it about as much as I like Beethoven.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Terez wrote:
You say that as if I've never tried other composers before. I know there are other composers out there; I just don't like them as much as Bach and Chopin. At least I have good taste.
I'm so glad I haven't :P

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:25 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
You say that as if I've never tried other composers before. I know there are other composers out there; I just don't like them as much as Bach and Chopin. At least I have good taste.
I'm so glad I haven't :P

Pssh, at least you recognize that Bach is the best. :wink: You are just more eclectic. I think I have some sort of mental disorder that causes me to be rather non-eclectic. I think if not for Bach and Chopin I would not be much interested in classical music at all, because I find most of it boring. Of course, the same goes for pop music, to an even greater degree.

There are definitely exceptions, things that I like as much as Bach and Chopin...but no one composer's oevure impresses me as much as those two. For example, I like Mussorgsky's Pictures, the Grieg concerto, some Shostakovich P&Fs, etc. But I have to make myself practice these things. Working on Chopin etudes is actually a pleasurable pastime rather than a chore.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:28 pm 
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My teacher asked me to pair them up (based on the type of technique) and learn a few at one go. So basically I was learning op.10 no.2,5&9, op.25 no.5,10(lento section)&11.

I've stopped chopin temporarily (now till earliest Dec) though to work on Czerny op.299 which my teachers before never enforced but I really don't mind it so much because my technique has started to really improve and I have my other pieces to enjoy.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:04 pm 
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amelialw wrote:
My teacher asked me to pair them up (based on the type of technique) and learn a few at one go. So basically I was learning op.10 no.2,5&9, op.25 no.5,10(lento section)&11.

Interesting. If I was going to make a group based on technique similarity, I'd do 10/2, 10/4, 25/6 and 25/11, or maybe 10/1, 25/11, and 25/12.

Quote:
I've stopped chopin temporarily (now till earliest Dec) though to work on Czerny op.299 which my teachers before never enforced but I really don't mind it so much because my technique has started to really improve and I have my other pieces to enjoy.

Agggh, Czerny again! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Terez wrote:
amelialw wrote:
My teacher asked me to pair them up (based on the type of technique) and learn a few at one go. So basically I was learning op.10 no.2,5&9, op.25 no.5,10(lento section)&11.

Interesting. If I was going to make a group based on technique similarity, I'd do 10/2, 10/4, 25/6 and 25/11, or maybe 10/1, 25/11, and 25/12.

Quote:
I've stopped chopin temporarily (now till earliest Dec) though to work on Czerny op.299 which my teachers before never enforced but I really don't mind it so much because my technique has started to really improve and I have my other pieces to enjoy.

Agggh, Czerny again! :lol:


it isn't funny! especially at my level...sigh :( but I've never worked through Czerny so yeah...

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:50 pm 
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For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:32 am 
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musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:56 am 
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Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

I'm curious. What would you use to prepare someone to begin Chopin etudes? Asked another way, whose etudes do you think come prior to Chopin in development?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:01 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

I'm curious. What would you use to prepare someone to begin Chopin etudes? Asked another way, whose etudes do you think come prior to Chopin in development?

I wouldn't use any of it. Chopin recommended Cramer and Clementi, but they don't interest me. Fortunately, he also recommended Bach, and it's easy to see why. The finger gymnastics in Bach's fugues are quite similar to that of Chopin's etudes. Aside from that, I don't know that anything could really prepare a person for Chopin's etudes, aside from general skill. But what do I know? I can't play any of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:29 am 
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Terez wrote:
I don't know that anything could really prepare a person for Chopin's etudes
Terez,
Here is what Hans von Bulow wrote in May of 1868 from Munich:
(In abbreviated fashion)

I. a. Aloys Schmitt: Op.16
__b. Stephen Heller: Op.45 [Really better to start with Op.47]
II. a. J.B. Cramer: Studies
__b. St. Heller: Op.46 and 47 [Really better to end with Op.45]
__c. C. Czerny: Daily Studies [Boo!] and School of Legato and Staccato [Yeh!]
III. a. Clementi: Gradus ad Parnassum (as selected by Tausig)
___b. Moscheles: Op.70
___also begin T. Kullak's School of Octaves
IV. a. Henselt: Selected studies from Op. 2 and 5
___b. Haberbier: Etudes-Poesies
___c. Moscheles: Op.95 Characterisic Studies
V. Chopin: Op.10 and 25 and selected few Preludes Op.28
VI. Liszt: Six Paganini Etudes, three Concert Etudes, 12 Transcendental Etudes
VII. a. Rubinstein: Selected Etudes and Preludes
____b. V.C. Alkan: selections from 12 Grand Etudes

I promise you that any one following this path will be thouroughly prepared and ready for Chopin's Etudes.

Edit: [Brackets are mine]

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:27 am 
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musical-md wrote:
I promise you that any one following this path will be thouroughly prepared and ready for Chopin's Etudes.

Maybe...but I would also be thoroughly bored. And I'm betting that Chopin etudes could just as easily prepare a pianist for everything listed. (And it's odd that the Chopin etudes are on the list.)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:35 am 
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Eddy,

I completely agree with you on this. It seems many pianists today are tackling the Chopin etudes long before they are ready. The issue, of course, is not necessarily even having the basic fingers to get through them but also getting the music out of them, which takes a certain technical freedom, one that's developed by first practicing the easier patterns in Cramer, Clementi, and Czerny. Czerny in particular seems good for learning to practice dynamics into one's playing in the early stages. It was cerrtainly part of my daily bread. I can never understand why people scoff at Czerny. It's such good fun in addition to its pedagogical value.

And the Moscheles are wonderful pieces (I think Moscheles is a very underrated composer), frequently used by Chopin as preparation for this own etudes, which he only let his very best students touch. The figuration for Op. 10, No. 2, I believe was based on one of the Op. 70. Having learned a few of the Moscheles in the past (like Terpsichore from the Grand Studies and the double thirds), I'm actually thinking about learning the rest of opus 70 before turning back to the Chopin etudes (and after I finish the preludes of course -- almost there :D )

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:53 am 
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Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).

I hated Czerny as a teenager, but "rediscovered" him some years later. The second time round I found hidden depths, and indeed much beauty. (Probably I didn't appreciate him the first time round because my teacher told me it was going to be boring! I had a negative impression even before I opened the book.) I think the musical value of these studies is greatly underestimated: some of them are very nice exercises in musical form, harmony, phrasing and shaping. And they form a valuable bridge between the (almost) pure finger technique required for baroque and classical playing and the freer approach of the romantics. Not that I'd use them as concert pieces; but I still think they're worth spending some time on.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:05 am 
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Quote:
Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).


Me too, with the possible exception of Feux-Follets :P

Quote:
I think the musical value of these studies is greatly underestimated: some of them are very nice exercises in musical form, harmony, phrasing and shaping.


Absolutely. It's a great way to practice dynamics and phrasing in easier patterns so that they become natural before the often physically uncomfortable patterns of the Chopin.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:19 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
It seems many pianists today are tackling the Chopin etudes long before they are ready.

I have been playing them since I was a kid, ready be damned. I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.

My exposure to Czerny was, like my exposure to most things, rather unbiased, since I didn't really take lessons until I was 16 - I just played what my mom had around the house. (She's not a teacher, even for her kids.) I took lessons from age 7-8 from primer books, at which point I learned to read music, but even before then I played things by ear. Mom had Czerny books, and I picked through them mostly because my mom had done a family tree type thing in needlepoint, showing the lines of study for her teacher (the one I studied with from age 16-18). She had three lines back to Beethoven, two of which were through Czerny. Anyway, none of Czerny's music ever interested me. I like Clementi better.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:35 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).

Well, he did rather simplify them didn't he. The 1837 version is far more fiendish. Maybe they're 'easier' on the musical level as they do not quite have the depth of Chopin's etudes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:09 pm 
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I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher! Speaking of Liszt versus Chopin, how do we file the Busoni version of the Liszt Paganini Etudes? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:23 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Speaking of Liszt versus Chopin, how do we file the Busoni version of the Liszt Paganini Etudes? :lol:

We'll worry about that once you have recorded them :P

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:35 pm 
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Eddy wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!
Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there. :P I disagree by pushing any Czerny upon students. They're rather archaic training exercises. It has chased many students away from music. Nobody plays Czerny studies in concert. For a contemporary approach to technique, I would think that Hanon or Philippe exercises are more efficient, evolved, and might complement as prerequisites to learning Chopin Etudes. I still advocate learning the majority of Chopin Preludes in preparation for the Etudes from a musical and technical standpoint. The Preludes can stand by themselves in concert - they're mini-etudes, and musically mature.

My 16 yr old cousin is shrouded with Czerny, and hasn't even done a single Chopin Prelude after the Canadian RCM 10 Exam. 10 years without a single Chopin Prelude is ludicrous! I advised her to cut back on Czerny, and start learning more Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Preludes, a concerto, and enter a competition before HS graduation. She is now excited to learn new and exciting repertoire and will hopefully pursue music!

Re:
Quote:
Liszt-Paganini Etudes.
Eddy, good luck with yours. The past few weeks, I am taking care of unfinished business - I am challenging myself to finish a Liszt-Paganini Etude that I started, but never finished when my teacher was alive. Maybe it's a better appreciation for the kinesthesiology of technique over time? It's ironic that I am more efficient with respect to technique, time, and energy, than I was as a teen. These days, a limited practice schedule is against me ~ 1hr a week... This is a big challenge to see if I can accomplish something that I couldn't do as a 19 yr old?... Can 40 yr old technical efficiency can outweigh 20 yr old inexperience?... :wink:

George

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:29 am 
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Terez wrote:
I wouldn't use any of it [Czerny etc.]...But what do I know? I can't play any of them [Chopin studies].

Terez wrote:
I have been playing them [Chopin studies] since I was a kid, ready be damned.

Sorry, I'm picking up mixed signals here. You give the impression that you've been playing these pieces badly for many years, because you've never acquired the technical foundation you need? If you spent a couple of months seeing what you can find in Czerny's opus 740, and then go back to Chopin, you might surprise yourself.
Terez wrote:
I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.

Now this I do agree with. If you honestly hate Czerny, then you shouldn't torment yourself. It's possible to achieve much the same technical benefits from a carefully directed study of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and others. I'm not saying everyone has to follow the same path. But if you can find at least some small measure of affection for Czerny's work, it will turn out to be useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:38 am 
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hanysz wrote:
Terez wrote:
I wouldn't use any of it [Czerny etc.]...But what do I know? I can't play any of them [Chopin studies].

Terez wrote:
I have been playing them [Chopin studies] since I was a kid, ready be damned.

Sorry, I'm picking up mixed signals here. You give the impression that you've been playing these pieces badly for many years, because you've never acquired the technical foundation you need?

1) I have no natural facility for piano.
2) Again, I haven't had much in the way of lessons. I've had to figure out the technical puzzles myself.

Quote:
If you spent a couple of months seeing what you can find in Czerny's opus 740, and then go back to Chopin, you might surprise yourself.

I doubt it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:13 am 
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I'm a professional (practicing my whole life :) ) and my first Chopin's study was op. 25, n. 2. I think that is actually a good choice to begin with. It will give you some speed of the right hand and a more balanced left hand. I find the op. 10/3 more challenging, for example. And I'm not talking about that stormy part in the middle! It's hard to make a great melody and a non-disturbing accompaniment in the right hand. Of course, if you only want to play notes, then this etude is not so hard. But if you want to make progress and one day be able to play all of them, then I would still recommend you to start with op. 25/2. Or maybe learn both! "Not so hard" are also op. 25/1 or op. 10/12. My experience with Chopin's studies is that practicing one study for a long period of time won't make it perfect. You have to repeat to study each study more times in several years and every time you repeat it, you're on a higher level! In order not to ruin your hands with excessive but not rational practicing, you should have a good teacher, who will show you what are the most suitable hand-moves for each one of them and how to activate your fingers. And then comes a day, when you can play smoothly and with no pain the op. 10 n. 2! :roll:

Here is a video of me, playing the op. 10, n. 12 (Revolutionary) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYEyK0oMLk , if you want to know more about the person, who is giving you advice! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:18 am 
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Quote:
I have been playing them since I was a kid, ready be damned. I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.


Hmm...you must have been the type of kid who ate chocolate cake before finishing your broccoli :P

Quote:
I like Clementi better.


That's good. The Clementi are wonderful technical work as well and, I would agree, better music than Czerny.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:37 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
I have been playing them since I was a kid, ready be damned. I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.


Hmm...you must have been the type of kid who ate chocolate cake before finishing your broccoli :P

I love broccoli. And I'm not overly fond of chocolate. :wink:

Quote:
Quote:
I like Clementi better.

That's good. The Clementi are wonderful technical work as well and, I would agree, better music than Czerny.

I still don't play Clementi. I have to really love something in order to make myself practice it, and Clementi doesn't quite make the cut.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:47 am 
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urska_babic wrote:
I'm a professional (practicing my whole life :) ) and my first Chopin's study was op. 25, n. 2. I think that is actually a good choice to begin with. It will give you some speed of the right hand and a more balanced left hand. I find the op. 10/3 more challenging, for example.

I just discovered last night that I've been playing 10/3 wrong my whole life. Legato fingering makes a big difference.

Quote:
And I'm not talking about that stormy part in the middle! It's hard to make a great melody and a non-disturbing accompaniment in the right hand. Of course, if you only want to play notes, then this etude is not so hard.

The expressive aspect of music has always been easy for me. This is why people have always made the mistake of thinking I was a talented pianist (my current teacher included). I'm stupid when it comes to technique.

Quote:
But if you want to make progress and one day be able to play all of them, then I would still recommend you to start with op. 25/2. Or maybe learn both! "Not so hard" are also op. 25/1 or op. 10/12.

10/12 has some LH bits that make the RH of 10/1 seem easy. 25/1 is much more difficult IMO, but most people play it horribly.

Quote:
My experience with Chopin's studies is that practicing one study for a long period of time won't make it perfect. You have to repeat to study each study more times in several years and every time you repeat it, you're on a higher level!

This!

Quote:
In order not to ruin your hands with excessive but not rational practicing, you should have a good teacher, who will show you what are the most suitable hand-moves for each one of them and how to activate your fingers. And then comes a day, when you can play smoothly and with no pain the op. 10 n. 2! :roll:

I started working on 10/2 a few months ago, though I didn't spend much time on it because I had a recital to prepare. It's coming along. As for pain...I figured out with 25/12 that pain is a sign of bad technique. I think I conquered that problem with 25/11...I don't have pain any more from practicing. 25/11 has a lot to offer concerning those 'suitable hand-moves'.

Quote:
Here is a video of me, playing the op. 10, n. 12 (Revolutionary) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYEyK0oMLk , if you want to know more about the person, who is giving you advice! :D

Fantastic technique. My only complaint is that it seems a little too straight (but everyone plays it that way, alas), and that the bass is weak (I think that's the piano). I started working on this one in earnest last week.

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