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 Post subject: Chopin Polonaise 26.2 and 3 more Mazurkas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:37 pm 
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Chopin - Polonaise Op.26 No.2 in E Flat Minor
Chopin - Mazurka Op.63 No.1 in B Major
Chopin - Mazurka Op.63 No.2 in F Minor
Chopin - Mazurka Op.63 No.3 in C Sharp Minor

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:23 am 
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Very well done as well even though I wish to have a more accented Mazurka "swing" and a bit more rubato in the Mazurkas. Once there is a trill or ornament, accent it with a short tempo drop and do not play it tempo steady through. That is at least how I wish it to be played (even though I suck playing them myself ;)).

The Polonasie is most impressive and you handle the fast runs better than in other pieces I have heard. Practised on them quite a bit I assume.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:35 am 
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Not particularly ! RH upward runs seem to come naturally to me, no idea why.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:33 am 
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Mr. Breemer,

Thanks for sharing your music with us. I am amazed, this time the down loading from home was fast. Have you done some thing special :evil:

So you have encouraged me to dig out my complete chopin mazurka to practice.

Me and my wife(pianist too) ready to sit down to enjoy your playing........

WE have to say the first one, at the start op63/1 was a bit too rush and I liked the way you deceived us by slowing down to the slow section(am i right? or thats your intension).

Overall, the mazurkas I felt that you played without sufficient emotion/feeling, it feels like you are just playing the notes thru without any emotion. I would like to hear a more sentimental version....

The Polonaise was well played, I have to say YOU ARE THE KING OF SIGHT reading and King of chords. SImply I have no patience in this particlular piece, and you know me well.
Chopin does write weird musics, and this one was nicely done with his artistic taste.

Overall, I hope you are not offended by our honest say and I am sure you will do better as long as you are happy with. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:10 pm 
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I can't find much to "niggle" (what a funny word, I'm taking it from you guys) about on the Mazurkas except that your tempo is a tiny bit slow in places. I don't have the score in front of me so I can't point out specifics. I will listen to these again later when my family is awake. Right now my speakers are low.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:38 pm 
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Overall, the mazurkas I felt that you played without sufficient emotion/feeling, it feels like you are just playing the notes thru without any emotion.

Hm :?
I am not a sentimental pianist, that much is true. I like to keep things on the move, and I dislike exaggerated rubato. After all these are dances in origin. If you want heart-on-sleeve sentiment, look elsewhere. I try to give these pieces tender loving care rather than smothering them in affection, and hopefully not all of you find them emotionless - otherwise I radically need to change my ways before recording the rest of the Mazurkas.

Hehe, the king of chords, I like that :D Makes a change from being the king of Turd Mountain.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:13 pm 
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Niggle. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:20 pm 
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Quote:
Niggle. :lol:

Yeah, that helps ! :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:36 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
when will you record the Polonaise 1817...knowing your reading skills it shouldn't take more than 2 days to learn.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:30 pm 
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Chris I liked your expression mark" :? heeeee. Not too happy ehh. By all means, the main thing is you are happy with your playing, who cares what other says....

Have you tried play the "king of the mountain hall" by Greig???/I might spell it wrong...I did hear one live performance by a Taiwannise pianist who stuidied in Austria with schoolship(when he was young). He was about 45 years old when he played. The performace was awesome but feels like breaking the piano.....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:30 am 
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when will you record the Polonaise 1817...knowing your reading skills it shouldn't take more than 2 days to learn.

Don't have to learn that, just need to brush it up. I am quite fond of these posth. Polonaises, and may well record them. Just one of the many plans I have....

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:30 pm 
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Okay, I just listened to the mazurkas again and I've changed my mind. I think your tempo is fine. I see two spots that can be niggled (?) (you have invented a new verb)

No. 1 - measures 40 - 42: My score shows an accent on the third beat. This makes those measures stand out against the ones before and after them. Not sure if it's a matter of dynamics on recordings.

No. 2 - Missed one of the mordents near the end - 7 bars from the end. I know, no big deal, but you play nice mordents (bet you never had a girl say that to you before. "I like your mordents" :lol: ) Sorry, I'm cracking myself up.

No. 3 was fine. Good job on the last line. I can never do that


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:33 pm 
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Thanks pianolady ! I think my tempi are relaxed, rather than slow. At least they should feel like that - they do to me.

Yes these accents ! I guess I never even noticed them, thanks for pointing that out. Instintively always put them on the 2nd beat, which doesn't seem to sound bad to me. But must do as papa Chopin said.

Yes these mordents ! The girls can't get enough of them :wink: But, I have not got one in my score 7 bars from the end. Have you got any more in your score that were not played here ?
Which score is it ? Mine is Peters (surprise...)

Yes that last line of nr. 3. Damn tricky and I was lucky to get it sort of right in a reasonable timeframe. One needs a bit of luck now and then.

Thanks again, your feedback helps motivate me for the rest of the lot.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:11 pm 
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I'm using Schirmers, edited by Mikuli. Not sure if he/she/they added the mordent or if Peters added it, but here is a picture of the last two lines on my copy.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:41 am 
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Yes, I thought that is where it would be. Not so in mine.
Is it indicated just here, or also in the all other places where this RH descent is played ?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:03 pm 
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That's the only extra mordent I show. By the way, back on your post of the Mazurka 59/1, I have a repeat sign at measure 12.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:16 pm 
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That's the only extra mordent I show. By the way, back on your post of the Mazurka 59/1, I have a repeat sign at measure 12.

Don't tell me I've missed a repeat ! :shock:
Will check tonight.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:48 pm 
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Chris, your Polonaise 26/2 is really great! And, it is already said here, but cannot be repeat too much, your right hand runs are evenly and fast. Congratulations for that! It belongs to the best Chopin recordings I heard from you, and not only from you.

Your Mazurka op. 63 sounds very well to me too. I don't like to enter the discussion whether here and there is a trill missed, there seems to be different scores, it is also not the most important thing to me. At least I myself did not hear any slips or things what pertubed the listening.

Also the reverb is not too much, but sounds nice - especially on 26/2, the staccato notes in the meno mosso part - it is not only a reverb, it is a little echo too, but decent. Have to use the same kind of reverb in CoolEdit. Can you tell the exact name of the reverb, please?

Quote:
I am not a sentimental pianist, that much is true. I like to keep things on the move, and I dislike exaggerated rubato. After all these are dances in origin. If you want heart-on-sleeve sentiment, look elsewhere. I try to give these pieces tender loving care rather than smothering them in affection, and hopefully not all of you find them emotionless - otherwise I radically need to change my ways before recording the rest of the Mazurkas.


No, I don't find your playing emotionless. You are a great player, and you have marvelous sight reading abilities. However I agree with some other comments that - for my taste - you could do more, on some recent Chopin recordings (the other mazurkas you posted some days before e.g.) even much more expressionwise. I could hear on your Polonaise, also Mazurka 63/3, that you play with emotions. It could be only ... even more.

Maybe it is easier to give more expressions if the head is relieved from looking to the score. Playing from memory is not only to impress listeners, some say that only if one can play from memory, one truely knows the piece. What will have influence on the expression while playing, I am pretty sure.

Already the kind you answer corresponding remarks from listeners here, says much. I agree, "exaggerated rubato" - noone likes this. Exaggerated means artificial, but what counts is honesty. And there exist honest rubato, this comes if one feels that the melody line demands for it.
You speak of "not a sentimental pianist". Beeing sentimental, that has also a something slightly negative taste. Playing with lots of feeling however has not at all bad taste to me. Just the opposit. You wrote once to me, that playing the right notes is only the first step. Yes, I agree!

To give the Mazurkas "tender loving care" is the right approach in my opinion too. If you could anyhow manage to play really soft (that is what I associate in first rank with tender playing!), to give the piano that mellow silvery sound on suitable places, it would be even more convincing to me. I know that it is difficult with a heavy action piano, but don't think it is much easier on an easy going action - playing soft and even is never easy.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:08 pm 
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Thanks Olaf. Johnmar had me worried there for a moment about the lack of emotion ;-)

Funny you mention the staccato sections in the Polonaise, these are what bother me about this recording. I am always afraid to produce a real dry staccato so I fumble with the note values and the pedal, and the result is not always convincing. Seems to sound a bit pasty when I listen back to it.

Yes it would be nice to produce a soft silvery tone.... But I find the Edirol does not register very soft notes, now that I have it further away from the strings. I am not sure it can be done - but I'm working on it. Perhaps the next batch of Mazurkas will improve a little.

I am pretty sure that many professional recordings are doctored with in terms of dynamics. In a concert hall it is a different ballgame, as the sound must travel much further. I think there the pianissimo exists only by the grace of the fortissimo.

The Cooledit reverb is the very first in the list, "Light Concert Hall".

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:11 pm 
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By the way, back on your post of the Mazurka 59/1, I have a repeat sign at measure 12.

(Sigh of relief...) I have a double bar line there, but no repeat. These seem to be used in my score whenever there's a contrasting section in terms of tempo or key signature.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:14 pm 
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(Sigh of relief...) I have a double bar line there, but no repeat. These seem to be used in my score whenever there's a contrasting section in terms of tempo or key signature.


Strange. I guess it like someone here just said about editions being different. I think that same thing happened with a polonaise you recorded a coupld weeks ago.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:26 pm 
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Yes I think the Peters scores are not too scholarly and authentic compared to Mikuli or Paderewski. For the Polonaises I have the Paderewski so that should be ok..... Otherwise I dunno what to believe !

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:28 pm 
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[quote="techneut"]Thanks Olaf. Johnmar had me worried there for a moment about the lack of emotion ;-)

Chris, Olaf expains a much better than I I did. There are some emotons..but not enough at least for my taste....
I agreed what Olaf said about "knowing the music thru memorisation"....
Anyway, you sparked me, I should start doing my mazurkas next week.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:53 pm 
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Memorization is for wimps who can't sightread :lol:

Then again, sightreading is for wimps who can't memorize. It doesn't bother me and you would never know if you did not hear the page turns now and then. I believe I can stay more faithful to the score that way than somebody who plays from memory (especially doing so for a long time is dangerous).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:37 pm 
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haaaaaaa. You made me laugh again Chris. Yes you are right.

I have had a problem with my neck muscles due to sight read at my previous training--15 years ago. Every time I read the scores during practice...perhaps due to repetitive training. at the back of my neck gives me a VERY PAINFUL muscle twitch at particular head movement after training. Thats why, I do all my trainings with my HEAD DOWN with photo copied scores(two page at a time) on my lap(weird eh?)and tried to meomorise. Thereofre, you can see why I have to play all from memory and other beneifits not just from interpretation but for the sake of my long neck..... :lol:

In your recording, I can not hear the page turning, did you stick all together and in a smaller photo copied version?? :twisted: Ddi you ever get a sore neck problem like mine? but I did the reverb(artificial but I wasnt at the bengining untill Olaf mentioned it.

Ps, at one stage, I have a choice between play the piano or give up(due to my neck), and I resolved the prblem my memorisation or trainng with scores on my lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:05 am 
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Funny you mention the staccato sections in the Polonaise, these are what bother me about this recording. I am always afraid to produce a real dry staccato so I fumble with the note values and the pedal, and the result is not always convincing. Seems to sound a bit pasty when I listen back to it.


No, I really like the manner you play the staccato sections, and also the nice reverb audible escpecially there.

Quote:
Yes it would be nice to produce a soft silvery tone.... But I find the Edirol does not register very soft notes, now that I have it further away from the strings. I am not sure it can be done - but I'm working on it. Perhaps the next batch of Mazurkas will improve a little.


I am sure that the Edirol captures everything. It has 24 bit inputs, and even 16 bit are sufficient enough to capture a 100 dB pressure hammer sound as well as a whisper in 100 meter distance without changing input level. No, for sure, the Edirol captures nearly all what a human ear receives too!

Quote:
I am pretty sure that many professional recordings are doctored with in terms of dynamics. In a concert hall it is a different ballgame, as the sound must travel much further. I think there the pianissimo exists only by the grace of the fortissimo.


I do believe too that often the dynamics seem to be manipulated. The recent WTC1 recordings by Barenboim come to my mind - there is a really unbelievable dynamic difference in the sound, can't believe that this is not manipulated.
And you are right, dynamics live through contrasts, and a ff anywhere in a piece helps to appreciate the pp even more. The only point is, in my case (maybe in yours too), it is much easier to play ff instead pp. The latter needs much concentration and all muscles must be completely relaxed (maybe it is what Johnmar calls gravity playing).


Quote:
memorization is for wimps who can't sightread:lol:

Then again, sightreading is for wimps who can't memorize. It doesn't bother me and you would never know if you did not hear the page turns now and then. I believe I can stay more faithful to the score that way than somebody who plays from memory (especially doing so for a long time is dangerous).


Yeah, you are right, the best thing is one can excellent sightread like you, and to memorize too. And I can imagine too that one can stay more faithful to the score with sightreading, also that the long time playing from memory is dangerous. So far, you are right.

The thing is only, that faithful staying to the score has the inherit danger that one indeed stays to the SCORE instead to the MUSIC. At the end, it does not count that one "execute" every expression mark exactly as written in the score (even Chopin did not so himself - it is said he could play a piece differently each time, but it sounded always convincing). And staying to the MUSIC through strong listening to it while playing - that is what seems more important to me, and memorizing helps perhaps for that !?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:33 am 
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techneut wrote:
Memorization is for wimps who can't sightread :lol:

Then again, sightreading is for wimps who can't memorize. It doesn't bother me and you would never know if you did not hear the page turns now and then. I believe I can stay more faithful to the score that way than somebody who plays from memory (especially doing so for a long time is dangerous).

I am a lousy sightreader but memorize pretty well. But I rarely take out the score to compare to what play so it eventually gets a bit wrong here and there. The advantage of being a good sightreader is that you can have a large output on recordings as you obviously have. However, I have the advantage that I can play my repertoire anytime without bringing the score. But well, nobody cares to listen anyway :?.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:45 am 
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In your recording, I can not hear the page turning, did you stick all together and in a smaller photo copied version?? :twisted: Ddi you ever get a sore neck problem like mine? but I did the reverb(artificial but I wasnt at the bengining untill Olaf mentioned it.

I sometimes do. It depends on how the page turns fall - sometimes it is no problem - and on how lazy I am (and on whether the damned printer cartridge is not empty once again). Sometimes - if it falls nicely between phrases I can just stop, turn at leasure, continue, and cut the whole mess out later. It's cheating, I know.... But if it's in the middle of something, and I did not copy it, there's no choice but to leave it in - any attempt to edit them out has been fruitless.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:26 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
techneut wrote:
(and on whether the damned printer cartridge is not empty once again).



Hint: In the "Print Setup" section set the printer to "draft" then goto "advanced" (or something similar to that) settings and maybe you can adjust the "dry time" and "ink density" set that crap all the way down. The sheets are still easily readable but your printer wont cough up so much ink to do the same job. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:38 pm 
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In the "Print Setup" section set the printer to "draft" then goto "advanced" (or something similar to that) settings and maybe you can adjust the "dry time" and "ink density" set that crap all the way down. The sheets are still easily readable but your printer wont cough up so much ink to do the same job. :wink:

The copy function does not use all that as it works independently from the PC. Will have to check the buttons on the thingy itself. But i don't think draft mode will be sufficient. I may be a good sheet reader but it has to be printed loud and clear.

These ink cartridges go empty ridiculously quickly. It is the biggest rip-off in history. I pay more per year on those than the printer is worth.....

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I print all my papers on the lowest ink setting too and it comes out fine. I know what you mean about being expensive. I just paid $35 for a black cartridge. Only yesterday I found out that some stores are now refilling cartridges instead of replacing them. Not sure what they charge for it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:05 pm 
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[ ]
I sometimes do. It depends on how the page turns fall - sometimes it is no problem - and on how lazy I am (and on whether the damned printer cartridge is not empty once again). Sometimes - if it falls nicely between phrases I can just stop, turn at leasure, continue, and cut the whole mess out later. It's cheating, I know.... But if it's in the middle of something, and I did not copy it, there's no choice but to leave it in - any attempt to edit them out has been fruitless.[/quote]

Chris, its not cheating, its enhencing as long as not touching the music notes.
Since you are high tec in editing, could you show me how you edit out the page turning noise using WAVE PAD or your software. I sometimes gets a bad squeek noise from my seats or my kids noise in the end of recording.....I would like to edit it out (sometimes its very annoying rather going thru the same recording again: but I rather spend time on something else).

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:09 am 
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Chris, its not cheating, its enhencing as long as not touching the music notes.
Since you are high tec in editing, could you show me how you edit out the page turning noise using WAVE PAD or your software. I sometimes gets a bad squeek noise from my seats or my kids noise in the end of recording.....I would like to edit it out (sometimes its very annoying rather going thru the same recording again: but I rather spend time on something else).

Yes agree, cheating is only when things (notes, dynamics, tempo) are really being changed.

I an not good in editing at all, and give up when it does not come easily. I only attempt cutting out a noise (like a page turn) when it occurs nicely isolated between notes or phrases. You can see the spike in your graphical editor (I use CoolEdit) and just select it with the mouse and delete it. Always helps to zoom in a bit first, as it is difficult to select an 1mm wide region with the mouse. I would assume it can be done like that with Wavepad or whatever.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:34 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Quote:
Chris, its not cheating, its enhencing as long as not touching the music notes.
Since you are high tec in editing, could you show me how you edit out the page turning noise using WAVE PAD or your software. I sometimes gets a bad squeek noise from my seats or my kids noise in the end of recording.....I would like to edit it out (sometimes its very annoying rather going thru the same recording again: but I rather spend time on something else).

Yes agree, cheating is only when things (notes, dynamics, tempo) are really being changed.

I an not good in editing at all, and give up when it does not come easily. I only attempt cutting out a noise (like a page turn) when it occurs nicely isolated between notes or phrases. You can see the spike in your graphical editor (I use CoolEdit) and just select it with the mouse and delete it. Always helps to zoom in a bit first, as it is difficult to select an 1mm wide region with the mouse. I would assume it can be done like that with Wavepad or whatever.



Thanks Chris, I tried last night using wave pad...when I remove the spike....its requested "place silence" with tmes(mms), is that the correct way....that also leaves a small "blank" on the frengency graph. Is that reight? Anyway, I also tried the reverb-max at 100. It does" thin" down the sound as compared to original. Do you get the same??


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:12 pm 
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Thanks Chris, I tried last night using wave pad...when I remove the spike....its requested "place silence" with tmes(mms), is that the correct way....that also leaves a small "blank" on the frengency graph. Is that reight? Anyway, I also tried the reverb-max at 100. It does" thin" down the sound as compared to original. Do you get the same??

Replacing something by silence does not sound a good idea. It should just be deleted.

Ni idea about your reverb, I use CoolEdit whuch has some good presets.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:16 am 
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Chris the Polonaise is excellent! Your voicing of the chords is excellent crystal clear and perfectly weighted. I can't recall if the B major trio section is marked faster or slower than the outer sections, I prefer it slower but no matter, your interpretation is excellent. Most enjoyable Chopin playing! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:03 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9597
Location: Netherlands
Hey thanks Chase !
Is your version underway yet ? I thought you were planning on this one too ?

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:26 am
Posts: 252
Location: Arizona
Uh, not until the spring at the earliest; I have two big cello sonatas and a bunch of Scriabin and Rachmaninov (maybe Medtner, we'll see) keeping me busy until February; in my spare time, "Woodland Sketches".


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