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 Post subject: FINALLY hear the juuf play
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:57 pm 
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Hello ALL! :P

(as you can tell I am happy because my Edirol arrived today, but as you will find out that I wont be that happy after I get ripped apart by commentary)

This is my first recording, so I am doing it by trial and error- where to place this little box (edirol, this thing is so small that I fear I might break it :roll: ). how loud to set the volume on the keyboard, etc. etc. etc.

Please excuse the sound quality because I do not have a real piano or high end recording equipment (I will after I win the lottery).

So here is the recording:


Franz Liszt
Waltz in A major


according to Lisztworks.com it is S208a

Admin edit: Attachment deleted, recording is up the site

Possibly the easiest piece Liszt has ever composed. I hope I pulled it off :?:

please take it easy on the negative commentary, my fragile self can take only so much before I crawl into my closet to curl into the fetal position and whimper for mommy 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:06 am 
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Quit being so negative! Gahhh!

That was very nice. Your playing is clear and your melodic control is quite good. I'll make a wild guess that you practice with the metronome. Am I right?

There is a similar piece by Tchaicowski entitled "Italian Song". It's in D major.

Keep up the good work!


Pete


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:45 am 
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no metronome. What i normally do is listen to someone else play it (someone better than myself) and see how he or she goes about playing. Then I remember how fast or slow they play it, mimicking the speed (not the "mood" or touch,but just speed) when I play.


Here are a few more:

Tchaikovsky's Album for the Young Op. 39
1) The Sick Doll
2) The Doll's Burial
3) German Song*



*This is not meant to be placed in the website's database. I record it to ask you guys: should I use the pedal? There are no markings on the score for when I should use the pedal. Also, this piece is not ready I messed up a few times with the time and the dotted eigth notes :evil:

As for the placement of the Edirol. The Sick Doll was recorded with it being where the sheet music rests, and the Doll's Burial and the German Song was recorded with the edirol on a chair next to me about 2.5 away from the speakers and about 10" below the keys on my left side. I ask which one sounds better?


Last edited by juufa72 on Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:47 am 
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well played pal. As PFJ said ..metronome???? Is the second part meant to be a delay(RH triplet)-i think??or just the file down loading is not fast enough??

Soon you will hear my home recordings---I have to up load first. Minute waltz...and others without metronome......I want to see if my LF are accurate as metioned by PFJ.

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:54 am 
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forgot the german song :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:18 am 
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the german song....I think the timming on the rh is slight too slow(da da da) otherwise its fine.
I listened it twice to confirm my opnion..anyone else????


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:18 am 
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johnmar78 wrote:
the german song....I think the timming on the rh is slight too slow(da da da) otherwise its fine.
I listened it twice to confirm my opnion..anyone else????


I mean its the third beat on the lh together with the rh towards the mid section of the music.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:03 am 
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Your both "doll" pieces by Tchaikowsky sound really good to me. Especially the sick doll piece you play with feeling - nothing to niggle about, nice little pieces, well played!

On your Listz waltz you could check to not loose the groove while playing the ornaments with right hand. You could try to practise the ornaments hands separated so long that you can concentrate on the left hand during playing for not loosing the groove. And you can give the melody more phrasing, show the melody bows. I would play with pedal so that the first beat in left hand holds longer.

The German Song is not ready yet. I could swear that your hands tense up in order to get the rhythm things managed. I would practise slower, with metronome, hands separated. So slow that you can completely relax, and speed up while maintaining the relaxed state.

The Edirol seems to get more and more popular here. If it were only possible to start a centralized big order to save money... But too difficult to manage I guess.

Keep up playing and recording, and please treat hints not as negative thing, instead as source of inspiration!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:33 am 
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I can't listen to these as my Internet at home is down, and am not allowed to download mp3's
at work. So unless someone would be kind enough to mail them to me at cbreemer@hotmail.com, I can not comment.....

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:00 pm 
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Hi Juufa72. You're lucky you got your Edirol. I'm jealous.
As far as your recordings go, the only thing I might add on the Liszt piece is a little more pedal.
The Doll's Burial, I think you played it fine, but in my opinion just a bit too slow. I know it's a funeral, but...I don't know, it just seemed too slow. But this is only my opinion. Others probably think I'm wrong about that.
I think the Sick Doll was perfect. The German song, again, I would add a little more pedal. Also, watch the third beat - sometimes it's rushed a bit. It needs to hit the same time there is a pair of eighth notes or one quarter note on the the third beat of the right hand. As far as the placement of your Edirol, all the recordings came out the same on my computer except the Doll's Burial, which was very quiet. I had to turn up my speakers practically all the way. Good job, overall. I like these little pieces.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:03 pm 
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I just listened again, and it is the Doll's Burial AND the German Song that are quiet. The other two come out louder on my speakers and sound clear.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:09 pm 
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The reason why everything is quiet (especially the Tchaik selections) is due to the fact that it is played "pp" and I have a keyboard with semi weighted keys.

The combination of the two make for really really quiet recordings. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:47 pm 
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Finally managed to download these - albeit at excruciatingly slow speed :x

Overall, pretty solid playing, without any slips or reading mistakes that I could notice (except the German dance, we'll get to that). But, there is also much to be improved.

The Liszt - I guess this is juvenilia, when was it written ? It comes off well but the accented notes are not quite audible as such. And you sometimes strangely rush the LH like in the first bar of the forte section. It could help emphasizing the waltz rhythm by inserting just a little 'lift' between the 2nd and 3rd beat of the bar.

Sick doll - In the first 8 bars, and similar later on, you need to keep all the LH notes until the end of the bar. You lift them as soon as the other hand comes in. In the reverse situation (bars 9-16) you do a little better but not much. Also, observe the "marcato il basso". You could be a bit more flexible with the tempo (i.e. a touch of rubato) and definitely a bit if ritenuto towards the end - even when that is not indicated.

Doll burial - This seems recorded at a much lower level than the above. Perhaps you accidentally turned the input volume wheel while moving your device ? Have to turn up the volume so high that the hiss gets annoying. Some tips: observe the rests, and observe the slurring (make sure the phrases are separated by realy lifting the hands as well as the pedal). In bar 15, you start the LH too soon. The long crescendo should be started in time, not in the last two bars as you do.

German dance - Have to be frank here, This is a rhythmic mess, and there are one or two places where you slip quite badly because being insecure. Try playing this simply in time - let the LH be the beat keeper for the RH. Perhaps this may be easier to practice at a higher tempo. Not that it needs to be performed as such, but often rhythmic problems are easier to tackle at higher speeds - paradoxical as it may sound.

So, good to hear your debut. One point of attention is the plopping noises (keys?) which are rather intrusive especially in the Liszt - or perhaps I got used to it after that. Also, try more variation with the dynamics, if your keyboard allows it. Lastly, sit and listen to yourself as if you were someone else, and try to hear the good as well as the bad things. I am sure you will improve much now you are able to record and post !

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:21 pm 
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Hello all and thanks for the commentary,


1) I do not know when the Waltz was composed. Perhaps early on in his life due to the simplicity and lack of feeling.

2) My italian is a little off, what does "marcato il basso" stand for? "_____ the base" I assume?

3) How flexible with the tempo? There is a fine line between artistic presentation and newbie slaughter!

4) The doll's burial is quieter due to the fact that I relocated the edirol. I noticed that when i was playing the waltz and sick doll that I hit some ugly sounds because of the quality of my keyboard (state of the art back in 1999, a little outdated now). So I decided to move the edirol away from the keyboard next to where I sit about 2 feet away from the speakers and about 10 inches below the keys, on the lower octaves of the keyboard. Maybe I should then compensate by turning up the volume on the keyboard a little.

What I noticed was that besides the ugly sound was that i heard metallic-plastic vibration because of the sheetmusic rest is plastic clipped into the keyboard. (before I relocated it)

5) German Dance = 50%. I know there are mistakes and plenty of them. I just posted it to ask whether or not I should use more pedal?

6) I cannot go about pressing down on the keys too hard because, as you observed Mr. B, the edirol will pick up on that sound. and to me it is as annoying as mistakes in playing. There is nothing I really can do about it, except by a real piano or glue pieces of rubber on the keys to act as dampers. :idea: :roll:

7) Debut= I did it with a rush, just to see how this works. Now that I broke the ice, I can sit back and really work on it. You might be asking, "wouldn't it be the other way around?" Truthfully...yes...but that's not how I operate :P .

Thank you all for your ears. As time goes on you will see a pattern in my playing. And what I submit. Sooner or later I know I will accquire the nickname of "Mr. Shorts."

My philosophy is play music that is beautiful because of simplicity. But the only darn problem I have is executing it simply. Irony, yes, I know.

Love, hahaha :lol:
-the juuf


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:44 pm 
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Quote:
2) My italian is a little off, what does "marcato il basso" stand for? "_____ the base" I assume?


It means "bring out the bass line". No need to be fluent in Italian, but you should really get a musical lexicon to explain common musical terms like this !

Quote:
3) How flexible with the tempo? There is a fine line between artistic presentation and newbie slaughter!

Yeah so true. Nobody know where that line is, but once you cross it, be sure we'll tell you :lol:
Seriously, it is just a bit rigied. Some judicious rubato, e.g. at the end of phrases, would make it much more interesting. But never overdo it, that is the worst thing to do.

Quote:
Maybe I should then compensate by turning up the volume on the keyboard a little.

Sure, or better, tuen up the Edirol's input volume dial, assuming the R9 has one like the R1. Or do it later on the PC using Audacity or similar. It is imprtant that your recordings are comparable in output volume (not always easy to achieve though).

Quote:
5) German Dance = 50%. I know there are mistakes and plenty of them. I just posted it to ask whether or not I should use more pedal?

The one or two mistakes are not your problem. They'll be gone soon enough. It is the rhythmic instability you need to work on. This is a Ländler, the German cousin of the Waltz, and should be played in a similar fashion. That also implies you can use some pedal, as long as it does not blur the harmonies.

Quote:
6) I cannot go about pressing down on the keys too hard because, as you observed Mr. B, the edirol will pick up on that sound. and to me it is as annoying as mistakes in playing. There is nothing I really can do about it, except by a real piano or glue pieces of rubber on the keys to act as dampers. :idea: :roll:

That is bad. Can't advice about that...

Quote:
7) Debut= I did it with a rush, just to see how this works. Now that I broke the ice, I can sit back and really work on it. You might be asking, "wouldn't it be the other way around?" Truthfully...yes...but that's not how I operate :P .

Good job we do not criticise in a rush :P

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:48 pm 
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I think your debut here went good and do not need to comment in detail as Chris already did that ;). About simplicity and beauty. I understand what you mean and the key to make it sound beautiful is to make is sound relaxed. One must hear that it is played with ease so therefore, you must learn to play it with ease. Hope you get what I mean as it did not come out easy ;).

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:23 pm 
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I understand what your wrote. You know your english is pretty darn good. :!:
Once I finish writing (or should I say "BS'ing"?) this essay I will go back and work out the kinks. Maybe someday I will be good enough to land a spot on this website *insert evil giggle here* :wink:

Thank you.
-JG


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:56 am 
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With just a little more practise, these recordings will be good enough.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:00 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
6) I cannot go about pressing down on the keys too hard because, as you observed Mr. B, the edirol will pick up on that sound. and to me it is as annoying as mistakes in playing. There is nothing I really can do about it, except by a real piano or glue pieces of rubber on the keys to act as dampers. Idea Rolling Eyes


That is bad. Can't advice about that...


But I can tell you when too much avoidable plopping noise occurs in MY case (on a real piano):
1) If my fingers are not on the keys, instead in a distance above. One can play loud with two ways: pushing from a distant in the key, or pushing from keysurface, but more pressure into the key. The latter one is the preferred, because it will never sound harsh and banging, only deep and forceful. And makes no plopping noise.
2) If I have too long fingernails, and the bended fingers lead to clicking noise due to the fingernails.
3) The ivory piece on the key is loose and must be glued again. Happens all some months on another key on my grand :x

You played on a digital piano? Did you not use the line-out output to feed the Edirol? Then you can plopp with fingers and you will hear nothing?

On a real piano, point 1) is what I find really important, because it influences the sound much, not only the key hitting noise with fingers.

So I don't know if it helps, but perhaps nice to tell about ...
:D

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:31 am 
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I have very short fingernails so the only plopping sound is of my short, little sausage-like fingers :x

I will check the back of my keyboard to see what size line I must use for the line-out to connect to the edirol. Thing is, I will have to buy a cable...and I am tight with cash because this little recorder was a big gouge in the checkbook :cry:

Thank you for your help.
-JG


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:41 am 
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Quote:
I will check the back of my keyboard to see what size line I must use for the line-out to connect to the edirol. Thing is, I will have to buy a cable...and I am tight with cash because this little recorder was a big gouge in the checkbook


Should not cost more than 5 Euro. And you can sing out of tune in the Glenn Gould style while recording the piano playing. With the advantage that it not captured... I wished Glenn Gould would have recorded this way.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:32 am 
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Well I think I have cured some of the problems with my recordings (no I did not go out and buy a grand piano and no it is not CD quality :x ). But I turned up the volume on my keyboard and the input volume of the edirol (but I still kept it off the keyboard because it reduced, as well as turning up the volume, the key-plopping, but with some occasions it is still present)

The Liszt Waltz- I slowed down the tempo a bit to get the waltz "one-two-three" in time when the forte section is played. Though, (I will let you formulate your own opinion) there is still a little skip in the base, I think it is caused by that ornament in the right hand to interupt the audible waltz beat heard throughout the piece. I also tapped the pedal a few times to carry over the half notes and noted the accents and staccatos to the best of my ability and of my instrument. (again blame the key-plopping...well if you do then it is actually me and my shallow pockets to blame :P )

Tchaik Sick Doll- I held down the notes in the base for the full value (or what I conceive as "full") I also added a pinch of rubato to the stew at the end of part one (after the repeat) to the beginning of part two. I did not want to overkill (and get into the habit of using) the rubato. So it is minimal at best, but hopefully noticeable to a degree. Also at the end I started to slow down at 1/2 way through the long crescendo to the very end.

Tchaik Doll's Burial- Let see if this submission is louder than the first. It is hard (damn hard with a keyboard) to play "ppp" "pp" and "p" because there is a limit to the keys' sensitivity, eventually it will not even register, whereas with an accustic piano the range is far greater and far more sensitive. I observed the rests and the slurs (though the slurs are still a puzzle to me...I was never taught how to go about observing them, and my music dicitionary does not have the term "slur" in it :? ) I also retarded the LH in bar 15 and at the mirrored end.

I am leaving out the German Dance for a while until I can make major improvements....until then...

I am including a new submission of "In Church" from Tchaikovsky's series of Album from the Young (I think it is number 23). Hopefully I can get it right with only one submission. I think this number would sound better transcribed for the organ....eh Chris or even Joe (c'mon peer pressure :twisted: c'mon,haha! )

I have been playing a couple of selections from Tchaikovsky for a while. Someday in the future I will complete the Opus. But I fear pieces like the Neopolitan Song will be a slaughter. It is already giving me trouble (the left hand....gah! I think it has a mind of its own!)


These are just some of my own opinions. By all means do not hold them as absolute. You be the judge, that is why I submit them here.

Thank you for your ears...again and your commentary...again :!:

_the juuf


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:43 am 
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by the way. That Waltz was composed when Liszt was 12 years old (1823).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:40 pm 
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anyone????


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:45 pm 
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Quote:
anyone????

Still reeling from the experience .... :P

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:11 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Quote:
anyone????

Still reeling from the experience .... :P



:x :!:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:24 pm 
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Hold your horses, I was just busy listening and replying.

In the Church - I liked the first half, the chanting of Russian Orthodox monks. You are truly into the spirit here. A little more dynamics please, if your kb allows it. But, your rhythm is funny. Like bar 1 is ok, bar 2 is too short, bar 3 is ok, but bar 4 you play as 3/8 instead of 2/4, ignoring the dotted first notes. Not that it distracts much, chant is flexible, but it's wrong. Count to 4 in each bar, or use the metronome to find the spots where you do it (which is almost every other bar).

The 2nd half - tolling (rather than pealing) Russian bells. Despite marked pp, I believe this should (as from the repeated bass notes) sound more sonorous than the 1st half. You play it very wimpy, and cut the tempo as well. Be a bit more assertive here, and by all means use pedal - over the full length of the bar, except perhaps the few bars that modulate (but even then you can hold it as this the nature of bells). Don't be afraid to speak out ! The other thing is, if you start so very softly, you stand no chance for the perdendosi at the end.

The other items sound definitely bettter already. More steady in tempo - though not optimal yet. The keyboard does not actually sound too bad. This time I did not notice much extra noises, and also no great difference in volume. But I think you should not be re-submitting pieces after working on them for only two days.... Take some weeks and the difference will be amazing.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:28 pm 
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back to the dungeons! muahahaha :twisted:

thanks for the comments.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:02 pm 
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Quote:
back to the dungeons! muahahaha :twisted:

thanks for the comments.

Better stop playing that dungeons game and go practising :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:28 pm 
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I don't know the Church piece at all.
I think your rhythm on the Liszt piece was better. Maybe the left hand is just a bit too heavy in the middle part.
I like the Doll Burial better. For one thing, I could hear it (I didn't have to turn my speakers up full blast) and I think you increased your tempo a little, which I like.
I found nothing wrong with the Sick Doll.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:19 am 
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Juuf these are good. Keep doing what you're doing and raise the bar for yourself in terms or repertoire difficulty a little bit with each new piece you learn. Some suggestions...

Fur Elise

Selections from Schumann's Op.68 Album for the Young

Beethoven Sonatas Op.49

Prokofiev Album for the Young Op.65 (I think the op. # is correct, not sure)

Bartok Mikrokosmos Book 4

Chopin Preludes in em, bm and A and a Mazurka in F, op. posth I think. Not sure which it is.

Keep up the good work.




8)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:39 pm 
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don't me fooled by my auditions Arensky. I split my practicing between easy pieces (though now being rejected twice :wink: :wink: :lol: , it causes me to believe that these are easily-hard) and more difficult pieces: such as Hungarian Rhapsodie #5, Schumann Etudes after Paganini Caprices #5, and a piece by Bortkiewisz (spelling?) .. It is a matter of execution. I feel more comfortable play the harder pieces, above, by myself and for myself. I do not like to perform infront of an audience and even recording gets my heart pumping a little. :x

Thanks anyways. Maybe next week or the following I'll resubmit for the third time :D :?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Quote:
don't me fooled by my auditions Arensky. I split my practicing between easy pieces (though now being rejected twice :wink: :wink: :lol:

You have not been rejected, we just did not discuss whether to put these up or not. Actually I thought you wrote it was not meant for the site but I now see that only referred (rightly so) to the German song. If you'd like these up the site, no problems with that ! Though I still believe that with some more effort you can still do a lot better, and you'll be more proud of it.

Quote:
I feel more comfortable play the harder pieces, above, by myself and for myself.

I think that is quite common. But as Schumann already said, it is better (and far more difficult) to play a simple piece really well, than to play a difficult piece raggedly. The trick is to learn to hear what you actually produce, rather than what you'd like to hear. Listening to yourself critically is essential practice (something Hamelin said, I think).

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I agree with Schumann's view. I believe that to bring off a piece with roughly 20 notes is a lot harder than bringing off a piece than say 2000 notes (musically. I am not compairing Satie Gymnopedies to Balakirev's Islamey). It is due to the fact that the audience and yourself can critique each rising and falling of the hammers with more scrutiny (sorry I cannot spell today).

Therefore I liked being critiqued with a hard fist compairable of that to Stalin's. :wink: It'll only prove beneficial...

but once I do manage to win the ears of the listeners, then, yes Techneut, I would like to be on this website. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:22 am 
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Location: Netherlands
Can you send me a bio (and a photo if you have it, recognizable and without a gun :) ) and tell me how to properly spell your last name, and I will put you up, except the German Dance.
Will you continue with the AftY ? I played though it the other day, first time since many years, and was struck by how much great music is in there.

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:21 pm 
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Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
yes I will PM you with the bio and such. But not after I get a better recording submitted (maybe sometime next week or so). I think I haved solved the issue of the volume. I just placed the edirol on my speaker :? . And then turned down the volume on the keyboard. Sure I lost a little bit of quality, but it is louder and no more key-plopping (well 85% gone). Every now and then I will submit a piece on a different piano (either at my church, at school, or a piano from the "piano group meetings" I attened to every 5 weeks). So no one has to bear with the sound of my "wonderful" keyboard :x

And yes, Album for the Young is full of great music. I will try my best to see how much I can get done. But I fear that pieces like Neopolitan Song and German Song will get the best of me. I hate the left hand in the N.S. (what do you call those? triplets?)


Thank you.

-JG


p.s. G stands for "Grocholski" (pronounced "grow-hole-ski"....or joking around with a dutch friend of ours, it would be "van der Groch" :lol: )


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:50 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
Alright. I had enough! I firmly believe that this is the best I can do with "In Church." If it is not good enough I will just leave it as that and burn the sheet music. :twisted:

I also am submitting another piece: Mozart's Minuet in Dmajor k.7 Just to kill the time between now and when I submit the FINAL draft of the other three pieces (Liszt waltz, and two other Tchaik pieces).


Please comment on the sound level (DO NOT TURN YOUR SPEAKERS UP!) I relocated the edirol to make up for the volume lost. But at a cost of keyboard sound quality. Does it work better than the other tries? Should I leave the edirol here or just go back and place it on a chair?


Thank you.

-Julius

oh by the way. You'll be able to get through this submission in one sitting. :wink: I'm not superman afterall. :x


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:20 am 
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Nice playing! Cute and charming pieces. Since I don't have the score to any, I can't make too much commentary, other than they sound very good to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:54 am 
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Very good ! That Minuet is cute, I did not know it. Nothing to niggle about except you must take care not to hurry the end of phrases (this is particularly audible the first time, just before the repeat). If you do anything there, tempo wise, let it be a _slight_ ritenuto but do not go faster.

The Church is must better, seems you have taken my hints. Rhythmically it is ok, the chant sounds very solemn and intense, and the 'bell' section is properly sonorous now.

So, these two will be your debut on the site. I'll put you up later today. Looking forward to more AftY items from you.

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Chris Breemer


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