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 Post subject: Rachmaninov: Prelude C sharp minor
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:32 pm 
Hi all.

This is my first post here, I'm not much of a pianist but I love classical music and have been trying to find piano pieces similar to this one for a while now.

Can anyone help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wddtne7KSs

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:05 pm 
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Hello,


Allow me to be the first to say that.


As for your question....I guess I can answer it by saying "Any of Rachmaninov's pieces are similar to that one because Rachmaninov is Rachmaninov".

Do you understand? Every composer has his (her) own style and what you linked is Rachmaninov. So if you want to hear more pieces like that, look to the recordings on this site under the Rachmaninov page.

Take care,
-jg

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:16 pm 
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Without know anything about how much you can play, a few Chopin preludes popped into my mind.

Op. 28, no. 4 in E minor
no. 9 in E major
no. 20 in C minor

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:04 am 
Thank you both very much.

I can't really play piano very well at all, I'm a guitarist, I would simply like to develop my knowledge of piano pieces, I will probably never be able to play anything as complex as that on anything other then guitar.

I do transcribe piano pieces to guitar occasionally, just finished an Eric Satie piece, however by doing this your obviously limited to only being able to play half of the notes, 10 fingers down to only 5 fingers etc and no more then six notes at any one time lol.

Thanks again piano lady & juufa72, I'd be very greatfull if any one could still expand on this thread still further with the names of any other similarly "dark, heavy" sounding pieces.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:50 am 
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Dark and heavy???

Hehehehe... my specialty!!!

Try these:

Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique (op. 4, no. 4)
Rachmaninoff - Moments Musicaux Nos. 2 and 4 (op. 16, nos. 2 and 4) , Prelude in G Minor (op. 23, no. 5), Prelude in F Minor (op. 32 no. 6), Elegy in E-Flat Minor (op. 3, no. 1)

Chopin - Preludes in G Minor and D Minor (op. 28, nos. 22 and 24)
Scriabin - Prelude in D Minor (op. 11, no. 24), Piano Sonata No. 1, Movement III (op. 6), Etude in D-Sharp Minor (op. 8, no. 12)

Liszt - Transcendental Etudes nos. 4 in D Minor (Mazzepa) and 8 in C Minor (Wilde Jagd) (S. 139)
Schumman - Piano Sonata No. 2 in G Minor - Movements 1, 3, and 4 (op. 22)
Brahms - Rhapsody no. 2 in G Minor (op. 79, no. 2)

There are a lot more that I could list... but that's all I can think of off the top of my head... :D

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"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:29 am 
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Tsk tsk tsk....Demonic Advent! You call yourself knowledgable in the dark and heavy genre but yet fail to list these popular pieces :P :wink: :

Liszt: Funerallis
Chopin: Marche Funebre from Sonata op.35(?)

And the not-so famous-
Tchaikovsky: "The Dolls Funeral" from Album for the Young op.39

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:35 am 
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juufa72 wrote:
Tsk tsk tsk....Demonic Advent! You call yourself knowledgable in the dark and heavy genre but yet fail to list these popular pieces :P :wink: :

Liszt: Funerallis
Chopin: Marche Funebre from Sonata op.35(?)

And the not-so famous-
Tchaikovsky: "The Dolls Funeral" from Album for the Young op.39


Hehehe... I was assuming that everybody already knew about Chopin's funeral march... and I don't consider that one very dark anymore... I've become immune to it.

And I'm not intimately familar with Listz, just the transcendental etudes.

Hmmm... I actually do know the Tchaikovsky piece... but it never crossed my mind.

Time to pull out my Ipod... I have a playlist on it called "Super evil"... time to see what I forgot about in the last post... :D

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"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:28 am 
You guys, thanks for these pieces, however i feel "You underestimate the Power of the Dark Side".

No but really, these are all great, though slightly obscure sounding, could you help me find more of the "classic" well know pieces? pieces that might strike a chord with the average peeps on the streets.

Grieg's Piano Concerto in A minor Op.16, would have been more the kind of thing I was looking for, luckily my little bro' remembered that one :)

Thanks again in advance.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:26 am 
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Hmmm... the Scriabin Etude in D-Sharp Minor is fairly famous... as is Rachmaninoff's prelude in G Minor.

Other really famous ones:

Rachmaninoff's 2nd and 3rd piano concertos... The third is famous for being EXTREMELY difficult, and the 2nd is just... ... ... pure awesomeness to the 10th degree. :D

Perhaps you could look at the third movement of Beethoven's "Moonlight" sonata?
Or the first movement of his Pathetique sonata?

Of course, for organ, there are Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, and his Great Fantasy and Fugue in G Minor. You could also look at his Toccata and Fugue in D Dorian.

Uhh... my brain is kinda fried at the moment (I just got back from crazy pyschodelic bowling :shock: ), so my whole "commonplace" section of my brain is kinda not working.

But seriously... a lot of the pieces I listed in my prior post should be available for download here on the pianosociety website. I would recommend listening to them. I think they'd be of great intrest to you. They might sound obscure... but to people who really know a lot about the classical standards, those pieces are rather common. Although, to the Average Joe on the street, maybe they won't immediatly recognize it. :wink:

Hmmm... I'm gonna go poke around now for a list of recordings to recommend...

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"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:37 am 
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Quote:
crazy pyschodelic bowling


That is soooo fun!!


Why hasn't anyone mentioned the Totentanz by Liszt ... you can't get darker than a 'Dance of Death' based on the Daes Irae chant ... love, love, love this piece!!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:59 am 
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nathanscoleman wrote:
Quote:
crazy pyschodelic bowling


That is soooo fun!!


Why hasn't anyone mentioned the Totentanz by Liszt ... you can't get darker than a 'Dance of Death' based on the Daes Irae chant ... love, love, love this piece!!!!


I can safely say that I've never heard that one. I don't know much Liszt. Just the transcendental etudes.

And crazy pyschodelic bowling is amazing... especially at 10:00 PM, with various friends who are just only slightly insane...

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"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:34 am 
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demonic_advent wrote:
I can safely say that I've never heard that one. I don't know much Liszt. Just the transcendental etudes.



OH MY GOSH!!! :shock: :shock: You must go forthwith to this page immediately and listen to Neil O'Doan's recording on PS http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=241

it will change your life. You know how they say you'll always remember your first time ... I totally remember every moment of the first time I heard this piece, the totally hot chick that played it live is completely beside the point! :P

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:23 am 
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Hmmm... not particularly impressed, sorry to say.

I don't like Liszt much. He's got lots of "flashiness" and "show-off-ishness" which is cool, but I find that the actual musical value diminishes when that happens.

This piece didn't impress me. It was very dark, yes, but a very opressive darkness, very humid. It made me feel dragged down, and gross. It wasn't the exciting darkness of Rachmaninoff or Scriabin, but more... ... hmmm ... "sticky?"

Also, Liszt decided to be stupid and end a work that is clearly in a minor tonality in the major tonality... BAH! Humbug!
Composer's only do that when they're weeines. Ending on the major is NOT COOL in my book. And I can only abode it if done tastefully. Bach, for instance, does it horribly in a lot of cases. Thus, while I can love his works, I tend to hate the endings, because out of NOWHERE will appear this frill little major chord. Bah. Liszt is just as bad.

_________________
"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:09 am 
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juufa72 wrote:
As for your question....I guess I can answer it by saying "Any of Rachmaninov's pieces are similar to that one because Rachmaninov is Rachmaninov".

That is grossly underestimating Rachmaninov's diversity and genius. And it makes me wonder how much more of his work you have actually heard.

Also, this early piece is not at all characteristic of Rachmaninov's style, if there is such a thing. It was just the piece that everybody wanted to hear over and over again, until he got so sick of it that he refused to play it in concert. I guess he would not be overly pleased by your claim that all his later output is similar to this one.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:28 pm 
Thanks again to all of you, especially to you demonic_advent, for the shear volume of pieces that you have named.

I have listened to all of your suggestions and found them all really interesting. I must also say thanks to nathenscoleman for drawing our attention to the "Totentanz" I thought it was realy cool and just the sort of piece i'm looking for.

A small observation I would like to share with you all, on something I have discovered in my own Writing, some of you may disagree:

I've found Writing in minor keys, producing dark sinister music, a lot easier then producing happy uplifting music. For some reason, if you start with a mind to "go dark", but then mess up I would vew that section of the piece as simply being "more experimental" the fact that it might be more "A tonal" doesn't seem to be of to much consequence, other then giving the piece a more weird edge.

But when writing uplifting pieces, if mistakes are made the result is basically worse, and stands out as somehow being more out of contrast. Whilst trying to write happy melodies, I often think, "Ahaa, what I have just written here.... if indeed it has a name, is actually some cheese!" :shock:

It's taken some time to cull the happier elements out of my writing, but now I am finding writing a lot more fun.

Thanks, just my opinion, as I am by no means a skilled composer and struggle at writing, for me though, this small personal rule has seemed to of helped.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:26 pm 
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demonic_advent wrote:
Hmmm... not particularly impressed, sorry to say.

I don't like Liszt much. He's got lots of "flashiness" and "show-off-ishness" which is cool, but I find that the actual musical value diminishes when that happens.

This piece didn't impress me. It was very dark, yes, but a very opressive darkness, very humid. It made me feel dragged down, and gross. It wasn't the exciting darkness of Rachmaninoff or Scriabin, but more... ... hmmm ... "sticky?"

Also, Liszt decided to be stupid and end a work that is clearly in a minor tonality in the major tonality... BAH! Humbug!
Composer's only do that when they're weeines. Ending on the major is NOT COOL in my book. And I can only abode it if done tastefully. Bach, for instance, does it horribly in a lot of cases. Thus, while I can love his works, I tend to hate the endings, because out of NOWHERE will appear this frill little major chord. Bah. Liszt is just as bad.


*gasp* :shock: :? :twisted: *shocked astonishment* :( *inarticulate growl*

How dare thee??!! I, sir, challenge you to a duel ... pistols ... at dawn. *throwing down the gauntlet* I shall meet you on the field, sir, and vanquish your boorish opinion. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:25 pm 
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I like the picardy third. Chopin does it a lot, too (the 10/2 etude in a minor comes immediately to mind), and I always find it to be tasteful when he does it, as I do with Bach. Sometimes Chopin extends it to an entire passage of major in a minor key (25/12 in c minor for example) and I always love it. :D

I agree with demonic advent about Liszt, though. I find his music to be lacking profundity much of the time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:17 am 
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Terez wrote:
I like the picardy third. Chopin does it a lot, too (the 10/2 etude in a minor comes immediately to mind), and I always find it to be tasteful when he does it, as I do with Bach. Sometimes Chopin extends it to an entire passage of major in a minor key (25/12 in c minor for example) and I always love it. :D

I agree with demonic advent about Liszt, though. I find his music to be lacking profundity much of the time.


Hmmm... When a composer can do it tastefully, by making the major ending fit naturally... then it's okay. Even though I would still like the minor ending...

But sometimes some composers just come out of NOWHERE all like: "Hmmm... I'd better pretend to be happy here..." And they're all major and crap like that.

If I had a good example off the top of my head... I'd list it. But... I'm tired. So I can't think.
Bleh. Just as well I don't. I probably end up saying something about somebody's favorite work and end up in another duel. :P

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"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:58 pm 
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demonic_advent wrote:
Composer's only do that when they're weeines. Ending on the major is NOT COOL in my book. And I can only abode it if done tastefully. Bach, for instance, does it horribly in a lot of cases. Thus, while I can love his works, I tend to hate the endings, because out of NOWHERE will appear this frill little major chord. Bah. Liszt is just as bad.

Hey, you ! :evil:

Don't ever accuse Bach of doing anything horrible. Bach was never wrong and nothing he wrote is ever less than perfect, including his major turns. If you don't concede, you'll have to duel me after Nathan's killed you first.

I will some time in the not too distant future post Shostakovich's P&F Op.87 No.12. The ending of that fugue is the most beautiful major key ending to a minor piece that I know. It is absolutely divine. I hope you'll deem it tastefully enough to abode :roll:

BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:12 pm 
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techneut wrote:
BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Off the top of my head: Schubert (Impromptu in E flat major Op.90/2) and that copycat of Brahms (Rhapsody Op.119/4, same tonality, same ending).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:28 pm 
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alf wrote:
techneut wrote:
BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Off the top of my head: Schubert (Impromptu in E flat major Op.90/2) and that copycat of Brahms (Rhapsody Op.119/4, same tonality, same ending).

Yes indeed. But both pieces have been in minor for the best part of a page by then. I was really thinking of a turn to minor right at the end.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:53 am 
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techneut wrote:
demonic_advent wrote:
Composer's only do that when they're weeines. Ending on the major is NOT COOL in my book. And I can only abode it if done tastefully. Bach, for instance, does it horribly in a lot of cases. Thus, while I can love his works, I tend to hate the endings, because out of NOWHERE will appear this frill little major chord. Bah. Liszt is just as bad.

Hey, you ! :evil:

Don't ever accuse Bach of doing anything horrible. Bach was never wrong and nothing he wrote is ever less than perfect, including his major turns. If you don't concede, you'll have to duel me after Nathan's killed you first.

I will some time in the not too distant future post Shostakovich's P&F Op.87 No.12. The ending of that fugue is the most beautiful major key ending to a minor piece that I know. It is absolutely divine. I hope you'll deem it tastefully enough to abode :roll:

BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Hmmm... Bach was far from perfect. Try looking at his Prelude and Fugue in E Minor, from the Well Tempered Clavier, Book I. According to my score: Both the prelude and fugue end in the major key. However, if you actually look at them, you'll realize this: The prelude would be MUCH better off ending on the minor chord. Try listening to it both ways, and you'll see what I mean. The major just sounds weak, pathetic, and fake. The minor has real depth to it. THEN... the fugue. It has a lovely introduction near the ending of the highly chromatic, and very dark theme... and then 2 seconds later flops away into some frilly major catastrophe. It doesn't even make any sense... the ending of the piece is far to abrubt, and with no development at all that would suggest ending in the major key. Bleh.

Also, I love Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue in G-Sharp Minor. It kicks massive butt. And, the major ending actually has some nice development to it, so it makes perfect sense. However... does that mean that you're going to also soon record the Prelude and Fugue in D-Flat Major? I'd be intrested to hear how you handle the fugue... my piano teacher has decided that I should look at it for fun after I finish learning my current stuff. However... it seems difficult. I would me most intrested to hear your recording.

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"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:51 am 
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demonic_advent wrote:
Hmmm... Bach was far from perfect. Try looking at his Prelude and Fugue in E Minor, from the Well Tempered Clavier, Book I. According to my score: Both the prelude and fugue end in the major key. However, if you actually look at them, you'll realize this: The prelude would be MUCH better off ending on the minor chord. Try listening to it both ways, and you'll see what I mean. The major just sounds weak, pathetic, and fake. The minor has real depth to it. THEN... the fugue. It has a lovely introduction near the ending of the highly chromatic, and very dark theme... and then 2 seconds later flops away into some frilly major catastrophe. It doesn't even make any sense... the ending of the piece is far to abrubt, and with no development at all that would suggest ending in the major key. Bleh.

I did actually look at them, as I recorded them. Not the strongest pair in the WTC, and by far not my favourite. But I can not concur with any of your misgivings. There does not have to be a development leading to a major ending. It is the surpise element that was so popular in Baroque music - although Bach does it so odtehn that it is hardly surprising anymore. Maybe it was a habit, maybe our ears and minds have just accepted it as the proper thing to do. Yours haven't. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

So, should you survive the dual with Nathan, please choose your weapon, sir. I shall meet you half way :P

demonic_advent wrote:
Also, I love Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue in G-Sharp Minor. It kicks massive butt. And, the major ending actually has some nice development to it, so it makes perfect sense. However... does that mean that you're going to also soon record the Prelude and Fugue in D-Flat Major? I'd be intrested to hear how you handle the fugue... my piano teacher has decided that I should look at it for fun after I finish learning my current stuff. However... it seems difficult. I would me most intrested to hear your recording.

That must be the crazy no.15 you mean. I will record it, but not anytime soon. I'm scared stiff of that one, it is the most bewildering piece I have ever tried. Yes it is incredibly difficult, more so on the poor mind than on the fingers. A bit like the G sharp minor, but far worse. That one at least is getting into shape now.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:32 am 
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techneut wrote:
alf wrote:
techneut wrote:
BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Off the top of my head: Schubert (Impromptu in E flat major Op.90/2) and that copycat of Brahms (Rhapsody Op.119/4, same tonality, same ending).

Yes indeed. But both pieces have been in minor for the best part of a page by then. I was really thinking of a turn to minor right at the end.


It comes to my knowledge that a reverse picardy can be found in Mendelssohn's Characteristic Piece Op. 7 No. 7. Good to know. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:45 am 
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alf wrote:
It comes to my knowledge that a reverse picardy can be found in Mendelssohn's Characteristic Piece Op. 7 No. 7. Good to know. :)

Very interesting. I thought there would have been more, though few, examples.
Also it says here

Quote:
those of Chopin's nocturnes that are in a minor key almost always end with Picardy thirds


That should help dispel any notion that a major ending is for weenies only :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:49 am 
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techneut wrote:
That should help dispel any notion that a major ending is for weenies only :wink:

But for those who think Chopin is a weenie...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:10 am 
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Terez wrote:
But for those who think Chopin is a weenie...

If such aberrant creatures exist at all, they have no place here :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:54 pm 
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I think GG thought Chopin was a weenie, and I've heard that sentiment expressed by many. Effeminate, overly sensitive, and all sorts of other similar expressions...I think sometimes that these people just can't play Chopin.

That made me think of Schumann's version of Chopin in Carnaval...and that made me look to see if it's on PS...and indeed it is, but it's just labeled "Carnaval", when it should be labeled "Chopin", being as it is only one movement of Carnaval. Can you fix that, Chris?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:53 am 
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Terez wrote:
I think GG thought Chopin was a weenie,

Yeah well, what did he know :wink:

Terez wrote:
That made me think of Schumann's version of Chopin in Carnaval...and that made me look to see if it's on PS...and indeed it is, but it's just labeled "Carnaval", when it should be labeled "Chopin", being as it is only one movement of Carnaval. Can you fix that, Chris?

Hm, yes, seems like my mistake :oops: I've fixed it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:57 am 
Sorry to break this up peeps, but can any of you suggest any more well know dark piano pieces :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Any even-numbered Chopin prelude. Chopin etudes: Op. 10 No. 12 is quite well known and dark. Op. 25 Nos. 11 and 12 are also quite dark, if not quite so well known as the revolutionary. Chopin sonata No. 2 in B-flat minor (every movement is dark, and the third movement is the infamous funeral march). Chopin Ballade No. 4 (my personal favorite).

I could go on and on...

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Well, it's not death metal dark and heavy, but Beethoven's Pathetique sonata comes to mind.
Also, when I WAS a metal head, I kind of thought the B minor prelude from WTC book II sort of
rocked (at least at the tempo Glenn Gould played it).


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