Piano Society
Free Classical Keyboard Recordings
It is currently Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:48 am

All times are UTC - 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Hand-over-hand technique
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
Hello all,

I have decided to dust off my Hungarian Rhapsody #5 because it is an underrated rhapsody. Sure it's long and lacks a friska, but it has it's moments.

But the problem I am having is playing a chord in the left hand then an apregg. on the higher registers with that hand, while playing something in the same spot with my right hand.

Any tips? Especially for small(er) hands and a big(ger) chest / frame? ( I knew that weightlifting like Schwarzenegger wouldn't be a good idea :x :wink: )

Thanks,

-jg

p..s I posted the sheet music below. The trouble begins on page 6.

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:15 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8532
I'm having the same problem with that Beethoven piece with the cross-over section. My chest isn't in the way, but I need longer arms. I found that if I quickly scoot over on the bench (without falling off) it helps.

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
Talking about the 2nd movement of the Tempest? :lol: Good luck. :D

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:12 pm
Posts: 67
Simply "swap hands" whenever possible.

I don’t know if this can be done efficiently in that Liszt piece because I’ve never played it, but I'm sure it's likely to work given the slow tempo indication. I do this as often as possible in many pieces to avoid crossing arms. Although... Be careful not to forget to subdue what should be played at lower volume and continue to emphasize the louder part, when "swapping hands".


Last edited by Cydonia on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
I tried to exchange the note responsibility between the hands. But it sounded very bad and hesistant after a couple of hours of practice. (Not all in one session...I can't sit at the keyboard for more than twenty minutes at a time...I become bored)

The left hand was the worst part. The right hand arpeggies were not bad.

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:12 pm
Posts: 67
Juufa, sorry if my trick can't work for this particular piece. Of course, Mr Liszt loves complicated stuff, so such tricks may not work very well with him.

As I said, it's not always usable, but it can become an alternative sometimes to avoid crossing arms.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:16 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8532
Martin - yes - the Tempest, 2nd movement. I've been practicing that piece for a couple weeks now, and it is all ok, except for that cross-over part. I listen to Brendel, who plays it so smooth and easy. But it's also slower than how I have been practicing, so I thought I just need to slow down to get it to go right. Now, however, I am going to try your idea. My piano lessons are cancelled for another couple weeks, but this is just the kind of thing my teacher would suggest. There is a place in the first movement where this idea could work, too. Wish I would have remembered all of that, earlier. Can't wait to try it tomorrow. Thanks. :)

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
Cydonia wrote:
Juufa, sorry if my trick can't work for this particular piece. Of course, Mr Liszt loves complicated stuff, so such tricks may not work very well with him.

As I said, it's not always usable, but it can become an alternative sometimes to avoid crossing arms.



I played a piece once (forgot exactly what piece it was) where I could use your described technique...it worked very well.

And if I could use the swap-move for this rhapsody, I would! But it would sound as if someone said this to you:

"Hello----is Julius----doing----ay?"

translation (Hello my name is Julius, How are you doing today?")

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:12 pm
Posts: 67
Pianolady - Glad if a little trick I found can help.

Juufa - Haha, I can see it now by looking more closely at your score. That Liszt is always so tricky.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
I have always used hand-swapping when possible - I learned to do that early on from Bach's 15th sinfonia. :D But when I was learning the Tempest, my teacher...well, he got his PhD (and his other degrees also) from Julliard. :lol: He seemed to think that hand-swapping was out of the question. :lol:

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
pretentious?

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
Who? Me or him? :lol:

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
Terez wrote:
Who? Me or him? :lol:


"Look at me! I have my PhD! All must bow to me and take the ground I walk on and the words I speak as gold!" :wink:

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:36 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8532
Well, I tried that hand-swapping thing yesterday. It works fine, except that the left hand needs to shoot up quickly and take over the 16th notes coming down. If you don't do that, then the hands end up crossing the other way, which totally confused me, so I gave up. I guess with enough practice I could jump the LH to take over the run, but I have a feeling I'm not doing something right. I think I need to stick to the original way. Thanks for the tip, anyway.

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
Oh. Well, since I don't have a PhD at all (much less one from Julliard) I guess you're not talking about me. :lol:

He was actually an awesome teacher. He just wasn't really fond of anything he thought was cheating, and you can bet that his ideas on what was cheating and what was not came from his schooling. He went to Julliard when he was 8. :lol:

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hand-over-hand technique
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:59 pm
Posts: 322
Location: toronto
If it means anything one trick that helps me lots when doing big jumps is sitting in the same comfortable spot. If I am always moving, then my hand motions are always different. It makes it hard to remember your hand motions if they are not always the same! If I sit in the same spot after a little while I can play eyes almost closed. Although I should say I never actually tried to play this piece so I might be speaking out of turn. There are also other tricks to learning jumps I think :)

[quote="juufa72"]Hello all,

I have decided to dust off my Hungarian Rhapsody #5 because it is an underrated rhapsody. Sure it's long and lacks a friska, but it has it's moments.

But the problem I am having is playing a chord in the left hand then an apregg. on the higher registers with that hand, while playing something in the same spot with my right hand.

Any tips? Especially for small(er) hands and a big(ger) chest / frame? ( I knew that weightlifting like Schwarzenegger wouldn't be a good idea :x :wink: )

Thanks,

-jg

p..s I posted the sheet music below. The trouble begins on page 6.[/quote]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hand-over-hand technique
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:00 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9600
Location: Netherlands
s_winitsky wrote:
If it means anything one trick that helps me lots when doing big jumps is sitting in the same comfortable spot. If I am always moving, then my hand motions are always different. It makes it hard to remember your hand motions if they are not always the same! If I sit in the same spot after a little while I can play eyes almost closed. Although I should say I never actually tried to play this piece so I might be speaking out of turn. There are also other tricks to learning jumps I think :)

This seems to make sense. It is for the same reason that organists are recommened to keep the knees together as much as possible, making it easier for the feet to remember and find their positions from a central pivot point.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hand-over-hand technique
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:18 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9600
Location: Netherlands
juufa72 wrote:
But the problem I am having is playing a chord in the left hand then an apregg. on the higher registers with that hand, while playing something in the same spot with my right hand.

I guess it's the high LH arpeggios that give you trouble, not the low (un-crossed) ones ?

There are 3 reasons that may make these difficult:

1) The stretch, as you have small hands
2) The fact that the LH must play over the right (though the distance is not great, that can't be the problem as you are not Terez :lol: )
3) The high lying position of the LH, which perhaps necessitates a posture change

I recommend trying to find out which of these 3 aspects is causing you the most trouble, and practice them on their own. This is just an idea, I never tried something like this as these bars never gave me trouble. Sound like it might work though...

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
I will give it a try and see which of the three you pointed out gives me the most trouble.

But that will have to wait until I am back at home. Classes stared last week (this is week #2 of 17) and I am already behind. :evil: :?

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:24 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9600
Location: Netherlands
juufa72 wrote:
Classes stared last week

They have been staring you in the face haven't they ? :P

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:04 pm
Posts: 725
Location: Louisiana, USA
this question is a bit off-topic but in same genre.

Do any of you guys slide around laterally on the piano bench during a piece? I've been finding recently some pieces are much easier if I sit more to one side or the other. And during some pieces I have to slide to one side for some passages. Is that kosher? or is my bellybutton supposed to always point at middle C?

_________________
the one, the only ... Nathan Coleman
"You see, my piano is for me what his ship is to a sailor; more indeed: it is my very self, my mother tongue, my life." - Franz Liszt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:03 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8532
That's exactly what I have to do for that Beethoven piece. I scoot to the right and then come back center after the cross over part.

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
i have seen lots of pros slide on the bench when doing scales / chords / hand over hand. sometimes it looks like would almost fall off the bench especially towards the finale of a piece.

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:35 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8532
I would die laughing if I saw someone do that. (except if it was me, or course)

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:59 pm
Posts: 322
Location: toronto
Do you always scoot to the same spot or just in the most comfortable way, or both?

[quote="pianolady"]That's exactly what I have to do for that Beethoven piece. I scoot to the right and then come back center after the cross over part.[/quote]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:15 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8532
I use an 'artists' bench, so I can only scoot over about 5 inches without falling off. But I still need to lean to the right as well. That's only for about one measure, though. So, this scooting and leaning does help me. (probably looks weird)

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group