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 Post subject: Coda
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:22 am 
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Hello all.


Can someone please explain why adding codas of the pianist's own imagination is acceptable?

And why is it that only Liszt's compositions receive the crazy endings? I never heard of someone adding in their own coda for Chopin's pieces or Beethoven or or or or...!


Quite frankly I think codas are garbage.

The Liszt Piano competition is a hypocrite. In the rules it specifies that arrangements will not be acceptable. However listen to this recording. Clearly this dumb@$$, the winner of the competition, added in his own flavor. Absolute crap! (http://www.liszt.nl/nederlands/2002Jean ... dyNo.2.mp3)

As you can tell, I am strongly biased. I believe that the true beauty lies in the execution of the piece not by murdering a composition with a coda the pianist created.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:57 am 
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Well, I knew that improvising your own cadenza was acceptable and even common practice back in the day, but I've never heard of people adding their own codas to stuff.

EDIT: I read that Liszt did the same thing to Chopin's stuff, and that Chopin had to ask him to please play only what was written on the page. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Coda
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:03 am 
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juufa72 wrote:
Can someone please explain why adding codas of the pianist's own imagination is acceptable?

What makes you think it might be ? Any examples where this is specifically allowed, except for the ubiquitous 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody, which is a circus piece anyway ?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:48 pm 
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I recall Andre Watts adding in his own flavor to a Rachmaninov P. Concerto.


Excuse me if I have mistaken "cadenza" for "coda"....I hope you understand what I meant. :x

<---Newbie error

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Well, I haven't watched the video because I'm not familiar with the piece, so I probably couldn't tell the difference. But cadenzas are typical to concertos - it's a section near the end of usually the first movement of a concerto where the orchestra shuts up and the pianist does a long improvisatory thing - it might actually be written out, but even when it's written out, it has an improvisatory style to it. A coda is just an optional end to a piece, usually an addition to sonata form but certainly not always, that happens after the recapitulation. Sometimes it's only a few bars. I think Beethoven put like a 200-measure coda in one of his symphony movements. Can't remember which one...

Good example of a cadenza: the long solo thing at the end of the Grieg concerto, first movement.

Good example of a coda: the thing in A major at the end of the Grieg concerto, third movement, which uses thematic material from both the main theme and the lyrical theme of the movement.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:43 pm 
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But I don't understand the point of adding in something that was not intended! You mentioned Chopin; I am the same way...as written please.

Are these flashy improvs nothing more than showing off? Pfff...what a wimpy way of showing off, in my opinion.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:14 pm 
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Well, determining apropos would of course depend on the composer. We know about Chopin's wishes regarding his music. And we know that Liszt apparently felt justified in improvising his own way in someone else's music. So you'd think he'd not care about it being done with his own. And then, of course, it's a matter of judging how well the pianist improvised....

For many composers, improvisation was considered to be a fundamental talent required of anyone who dared to call his or her self a musician, which is why some obviously considered it to be acceptable and even expected practice, even in works by other composers.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Also, I should point out that it seems the main reason why Chopin objected to Liszt's improvisations was not that he did it at all, but that he made no attempt to even mimic Chopin's style in the process, and Liszt's own style was far different than Chopin's- must flashier, and different in other ways I can't quite put to words. And yes, you can guarantee that, for Liszt, it was all about showing off. ;)

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:30 pm 
What is composing, except "showing off"? Music is about expression and invention. Literalists are destined to stagnation, always griping about the unbearable creativity of others.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:39 am 
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Terez wrote:
Also, I should point out that it seems the main reason why Chopin objected to Liszt's improvisations was not that he did it at all, but that he made no attempt to even mimic Chopin's style in the process, and Liszt's own style was far different than Chopin's- must flashier, and different in other ways I can't quite put to words. And yes, you can guarantee that, for Liszt, it was all about showing off. ;)

Nonetheless, Chopin was openly envious of Liszt's prowess, in particular the way he played Chopin's Etudes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:39 am 
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techneut wrote:
Nonetheless, Chopin was openly envious of Liszt's prowess, in particular the way he played Chopin's Etudes.

Yes, of course he was. I got the impression from my readings on the subject that there was very much a sort of love-hate relationship between the two. I even got undertones of that in Liszt's biography of Chopin. Chopin was jealous of Liszt's technical prowess, and Liszt was jealous of Chopin's composition genius, though both were certainly respectable enough in their own right in their "weak" area...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:40 pm 
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I just wanted to point out that in 2 of my editions in the Hungarian Rhapsody, Liszt marked a cadenza in the score right at the end of the Friska. Other than the weird arpeggio he inserted at the end of the Lassan, the pianist really only added anything in that one place (he changed one other written cadenza/arpeggio thing at beginning of Lassan). The cadenza was always supposed to be about the performer and his talents ... a moment to show-off, if you will. More recently however, performers have just cut out these unwritten cadenzas .. or substituted their own cadenza with those pre-written by recognised composers.

A note in my Alfred Edition, edited by Maurice Hinson, says "In 1885 Liszt wrote a whole series of cadenzas to this Rhapsody." and includes two versions. I've been looking off and on for an edition of all his cadenzas, but doesn't seem to be easy to find.

So, IMHO, this pianist actually was true to Liszt spirit ... I enjoyed the cadenza very much ... and the cembalon ornaments were sick.

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