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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Richard66 wrote:
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Just because of what happened then does not mean that Wagner would have condoned it.


That´s also a right notion, but in a certain way he has preworked for the Nazi-ideology.

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The other day. listening to Medelssohn, I was wondering: just how could he (or anyone else for that matter) hear semitic traits there?


But some of Wagners theses were directly and personal against Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, he considered as an enemy. So, I´m not surprised Mendelssohn felt attacked.

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Last edited by musicusblau on Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:45 pm 
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musicusblau wrote:
That´s principally a right notion, but somehow you can´t really separate his music from his mind. Though I have to say, that I accredit his special musical achievement, of course. There is no doubt, that he has his place among important composers, who have created something important and special in music history. It´s evident f.ex., that with his chromatic progressions Wagner has perfected the tonal music in a certain way respective he brought it to a certain limit, and with that he opened ways for new developments in direction of modern music.

And even apart from his huge influence on other composers, some of his tunes, and the way he presents them, are just irresistible, at least to me. The Tannhauser and Meistersinger overtures, the Walkurenritte, the Siegfried Idyll - great music and pure genius, however much I dislike his wearing of silk underpants and his bottom-licking attitude with to his superiors.

musicusblau wrote:
I also wouldn´t see a reason not to buy that porcelain drink beaker, if it was as pretty as you say, if you ask me. :)

Many things from the Nazi period are just as aesthetically pleasing as anything else from that time, and I would not condemn them just because (but neither would I buy them just because). Actually I find some of Hitlers' paintings quite pretty (even though they are not great art by any standards), and would not hesitate buying one, provided it was not more expensive than the usual price I'd pay for an amateur painting :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:58 pm 
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I hear that Hitler was fond of Chopin. Of course, he might have just sought out the Jew-haters. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:10 pm 
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He was very fond of Wagner too, and very fond of his dog. You'd almost start to think he was halfway human ...

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Quote:
And even apart from his huge influence on other composers, some of his tunes, and the way he presents them, are just irresistible, at least to me. The Tannhauser and Meistersinger overtures, the Walkurenritte, the Siegfried Idyll - great music and pure genius,


I agree at hundred percent to that. But my favorite opera by Wagner is the "Parzival" and the best music he ever has written, is the motif of Parzival, "der reine Thor", which is in a pure and simple c-major. For me this is may be the only place Wagner has shown us, that there is a bit more than obscure ideology in his soul and mind. (As we know Parzival is a seeker of the Saint Grail, that means also he is seeking for God and the pureness.) But from that pureness Wagner seems not to have the faintest idea in most of his other works! :roll:
If you compare them with the oratorios by Mendelssohn, "Elias" and "Paulus" f.ex., I only can say, that - just judged from the music itself - in Wagner we have something like the devil and in Mendelssohn we have the pure angel. So, also the music seems to attest to the mind and character of their composers.

Quote:
Actually I find some of Hitlers' paintings quite pretty (even though they are not great art by any standards), and would not hesitate buying one, provided it was not more expensive than the usual price I'd pay for an amateur painting :


I see you are trying to separate the things themselves from the mind of their "creators" and I respect and appreciate that in a certain way! It´s an interesting point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:04 pm 
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techneut wrote:
He was very fond of Wagner too

Well, everyone knows that. :wink:

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...and very fond of his dog.

That, I didn't know. But it's not surprising that an dictator would like a dog. If he had loved a cat, I'd be surprised.

(See, you managed to make it about pets after all.)

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:10 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


:lol: :lol: (sorry, Andreas, I can't help it...that just tickles my funny bone)


The most funny thing is, that "Puky" is a label on the bycycle of my son (I suppose, it´s a name of brand or so), and Chris made me considerate to the meaning of that name in English :lol: . I somehow spontaneously thought, in the context of Wagners ideology this wordplay could be of an adequate use. :twisted: You see, I´m not only creative concerning music. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:24 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:55 am 
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andrew wrote:
Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.
And his whiny-ass behavior and treatment of Liszt was deplorable!

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:09 am 
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andrew wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


The ancient Hebrews were also not producers of art, the Bible and the Temple excepted.

Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:12 am 
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andrew wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


I remember a book I once read (written in the 1930s, before the War) where there is a chapter called: The Monster and here a most obnoxious character is described. After one like him as much as much as the late Bin we are told it is Wagner who is being described.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:23 am 
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richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:24 am 
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pianolady wrote:
andrew wrote:
Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.
And his whiny-ass behavior and treatment of Liszt was deplorable!


Absolutely. It's very much to Liszt's credit that he put up with Wagner's incessant demands for money, etc, in the knowledge that subsidising his lifestyle would be for the greater artistic good.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:36 am 
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Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


But he was half-French, so maybe he is worth only 2 Poles? :wink:

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