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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:15 am 
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In no particular order:

Light vocal music
Most of Mozart's piano music (give me Haydn any day)
The Ode to Joy
Most minimalism
Lang Lang's mannerisms (and a fair bit of his playing)
Alfred Brendel playing Liszt (bad tone, and a curiously pedantic attitude to textual fidelity for someone who is prone to simplifying the score - his scales (sic) in the 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody are particularly amusing)
In particular Alfred Brendel playing the Wagner-Liszt Isolde's Liebestod which is imo musically appalling.
Unadventurous concert programmes: do they really believe concertgoers think "YES! I must go and hear x for the 736th time"?


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:16 pm 
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Yes, Richard, there is a lot of shyness around here. I don't know why...

Andrew, what makes Haydn much more appealing than Mozart?
I'm curious because I have not played hardly any Haydn and I wonder what I am missing. Actually, I wouldn't even know where to start.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:50 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Andrew, what makes Haydn much more appealing than Mozart?
I'm curious because I have not played hardly any Haydn and I wonder what I am missing. Actually, I wouldn't even know where to start.


Look at the F min variations. Terrific piece.

I find Mozart sonatas have so "much composition by numbers". There's only so many Alberti basses, repeated I V I V cadences, scale figures that I can take. Plus I find Haydn more adventurous rhythmically and he has a sense of humour.

Must slightly qualify/clarify one of my previous statements. I don't find the Wagner-Liszt Isolde's Liebestod musically appalling (in fact it's my favourite transcription), I find Brendel's recordings of it quite atrocious.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 2:44 am 
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andrew wrote:
pianolady wrote:
Andrew, what makes Haydn much more appealing than Mozart?
I'm curious because I have not played hardly any Haydn and I wonder what I am missing. Actually, I wouldn't even know where to start.


Look at the F min variations. Terrific piece.


Ok, thank you, I'll look at it as soon as I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 2:34 pm 
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I agree with you in part, in that I find Hadn quite different from Mozart and also being usually quite fun. I really need to dust my two volumes of Haydn. I also find his symphonies far superior to Mozart's.

Do investigate him, Monica: you will be pleasantly surprised.

The fact (at least I) one does not hear of Brendel playing that repertoire says worlds.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:15 pm 
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You know...I always felt that Mozart was the humorous one, but probably that's because I haven't listened to or played that much Haydn. Now that I think about it, there is that story about Haydn, when he was young, cutting off the ponytail of the boy sitting in front of him at choir practice. That tickles my funny bone...

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Apart from the overtly humorous pieces (A Musical Joke) I notice no humour in his compositions. Wit, yes, in the way he surprises by doing the unexpected (a socondary theme in the minor, for example). Haydn always has a joke to offer, such as a lyric melody played by the double-bass. Add to that that Mozart's best music is not in his sonatas or symphonies, but in his concerti. It is in the latter that his genius shines through. Out of his 19 sonatas how many are really rewarding to play? I would say 4 or 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 5:28 pm 
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I'm probably thinking about the way Mozart talks in his letters - that's why I think he is humorous. I know that has nothing to do with his music being humorous. Although, I probably do need music-humor lessons. Like besides a double bass playing a melody, which yes is a little funny, what else would be funny? I don't recall listening to something and saying to myself, "oh, haha that was so funny..."

Can anyone give me more examples of humor in music? (and I don't mean Victor Borge type of stuff, I mean serious classical stuff...err..serious funny classical stuff) (does that make sense...?)

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:10 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
Apart from the overtly humorous pieces (A Musical Joke) I notice no humour in his compositions. Wit, yes, in the way he surprises by doing the unexpected (a socondary theme in the minor, for example).

I'm not sure I agree to that. Depends on one's sense of humor, probably.

richard66 wrote:
Haydn always has a joke to offer, such as a lyric melody played by the double-bass.

I don't know nearly enough of and about Haydn but from what I heard/read it would seem that he is the more quirky and humorous of the two. Does that make him the better composer ? I am not sure. If we need to compare the two at at all, that is. IMHO, humor in music is overrated. Personally I am a bit allergic to composers (well, people in general) who desire to be funny all the time. Goes with my morose character I guess :P

But much of the best music is not particularly jocular. Think of Brahms, Bach, Rachmaninov, Chopin, Mahler, Tchaikovsky .... Given the choice I'd pick a serious work every time.

richard66 wrote:
Add to that that Mozart's best music is not in his sonatas or symphonies, but in his concerti. It is in the latter that his genius shines through. Out of his 19 sonatas how many are really rewarding to play? I would say 4 or 5.

Did you try them all ?

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:58 am 
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pianolady wrote:
Can anyone give me more examples of humor in music? (and I don't mean Victor Borge type of stuff, I mean serious classical stuff...err..serious funny classical stuff) (does that make sense...?)

The first thing that comes to my mind is Dohnanyi's Variations on a Nursery Theme for piano and orchestra. There are moments of humour in some of Shostakovich's preludes op 34, I'm thinking especially of the A flat and D flat preludes (although there are other pieces in the same set that are very black). And the fugue theme from his prelude and fugue in D. There's the ending of Rachmaninoff's Paganini rhapsody. Some of Brahms's Hungarian dances; I particularly like number 7. Debussy's Minstrels (preludes book 1 no. 12). The ending of Beethoven's op. 14 no. 2 second movement (not subtle, but I'm sure it was meant humourously). The Miniatures op. 62 of Theodore Kirchner. Poulenc's piano pieces are full of humour, although we don't hear them played very often (I remember Pascal Rogé giving a hilarious performance of the Soireés de Nazelles).

And that's just solo piano music, not even getting into chamber or orchestral repertoire. If you investigate lieder and other art song, you'll find plenty of music based on not-so-serious texts. And of course opera.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:38 am 
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Thank you for those suggestions, Alexander. I listened to three of them just now but I still don't get this humor thing. I can't correlate music and humor. I understand and often say the words, "neat", "cute", or "cool" when I hear something in a certain piece of music that I think is particularly interesting - like when a composer quotes himself or another composer, or uses neat harmonies, etc... but I never think something in music is funny. That's just not an emotion that works with classical music, in my mind anyway. I'm probably defective and have too weird a sense of humor.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 4:44 pm 
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techneut wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Apart from the overtly humorous pieces (A Musical Joke) I notice no humour in his compositions. Wit, yes, in the way he surprises by doing the unexpected (a socondary theme in the minor, for example).

I'm not sure I agree to that. Depends on one's sense of humor, probably.


By humour I do not mean the braying of asses (the sort of joke R. Strauss is apt to make - Look at his Burleske, where, to my ears at least, the piano imitates a horse neighing). On reflection I might agree with you: the Rondo of Sonata K 545 (I hope I have the number right) has its humour. And the Piano Concerto No. 9; Knowing that in Paris the audience expected a long orchestral introduction what does Mozart do? He has the piano come in at the very start. This is his first great piano concerto. Not for this joke, but for the lovely second movement.

techneut wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Haydn always has a joke to offer, such as a lyric melody played by the double-bass.

I don't know nearly enough of and about Haydn but from what I heard/read it would seem that he is the more quirky and humorous of the two. Does that make him the better composer ? I am not sure. If we need to compare the two at at all, that is. IMHO, humor in music is overrated. Personally I am a bit allergic to composers (well, people in general) who desire to be funny all the time. Goes with my morose character I guess :P


People trying to be funny are usually anything but. The funniest ones are the ones who are so by nature. Is Haydn the better composer? Maybe if one examines the symphonies, but not if one examines the concerti. I have never really bothered about this, really. I enjoy both and both in their individual fields.

techneut wrote:
But much of the best music is not particularly jocular. Think of Brahms, Bach, Rachmaninov, Chopin, Mahler, Tchaikovsky .... Given the choice I'd pick a serious work every time.


Mahler is not always serious. Indeed, at times his songs are humorous; one of them includes... the braying of an ass! The Scherzo of his 1st symphony is almost ridiculous. Brahms has his Academic Festival Overture, Bach has the Coffee Cantata...

techneut wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Add to that that Mozart's best music is not in his sonatas or symphonies, but in his concerti. It is in the latter that his genius shines through. Out of his 19 sonatas how many are really rewarding to play? I would say 4 or 5.

Did you try them all ?


I have not played them all, but I have certainly listened to them. I find the earlier ones (in the K 200s) a bit long-winded. Some of the ones in the K 300s are good. The one in Bb I find particularly attractive and will even say it is a masterpiece. The 3rd movement has all the atributes of a movement from a concerto but without the orchestra.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:17 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
pianolady wrote:
Can anyone give me more examples of humor in music? (and I don't mean Victor Borge type of stuff, I mean serious classical stuff...err..serious funny classical stuff) (does that make sense...?)

The first thing that comes to my mind is Dohnanyi's Variations on a Nursery Theme for piano and orchestra. There are moments of humour in some of Shostakovich's preludes op 34, I'm thinking especially of the A flat and D flat preludes (although there are other pieces in the same set that are very black). And the fugue theme from his prelude and fugue in D. There's the ending of Rachmaninoff's Paganini rhapsody. Some of Brahms's Hungarian dances; I particularly like number 7. Debussy's Minstrels (preludes book 1 no. 12). The ending of Beethoven's op. 14 no. 2 second movement (not subtle, but I'm sure it was meant humourously). The Miniatures op. 62 of Theodore Kirchner. Poulenc's piano pieces are full of humour, although we don't hear them played very often (I remember Pascal Rogé giving a hilarious performance of the Soireés de Nazelles).

And that's just solo piano music, not even getting into chamber or orchestral repertoire. If you investigate lieder and other art song, you'll find plenty of music based on not-so-serious texts. And of course opera.


The great letting down of the Dohnanyi is the title. It would be even more effective if he had called the piece "variations on a popular theme. It would certainly be much more surprising, after all that Wagnerinan high drama have Twinkle Twinkle Little Star come in!

I like the Scherzo of Beethoven's Symphony No. 7. It caught me, what with Scherzo-trio-scherzo-trio-scherzo-trio... But STOP! WILL YOU? And he does: He uses the last trio's first bars as a coda.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:20 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Thank you for those suggestions, Alexander. I listened to three of them just now but I still don't get this humor thing. I can't correlate music and humor. I understand and often say the words, "neat", "cute", or "cool" when I hear something in a certain piece of music that I think is particularly interesting - like when a composer quotes himself or another composer, or uses neat harmonies, etc... but I never think something in music is funny. That's just not an emotion that works with classical music, in my mind anyway. I'm probably defective and have too weird a sense of humor.


You know, Monica, this is the way I felt once when you told me a certain piece had to sound seductive.

Have you listened to the second movement of Haydn's Surprise Symphony (No. 94)? All pp and then... the timpani go BANG. FF. It woke me up once! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Having heard live the Tchaikovsky Concerto No1 TWICE last night during the finals of the Fulbright Concerto Competition, I can unequivocally add that I find the dramatic tempo change in the slow movement of above to be most humerous. Anybody else think the same? (get out your recordings and listen).

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Richard, is that the one that goes....(I'm singing) c,c,e,e,g,g,e - f,f,d,d,b,b,f - c,c,e,e,g,g,e - high c,c, f#, f# g - BANG!
I sort of think that one is funny. But mostly because I love to watch people jump when they are started!!



EDIT: btw, I think seduction is easy for me to relate to in music because it's the hands on the keys...that sort of thing. Also the emotions; sad, happy, relaxed, and melancholy are easy to feel in music. Just not humor, which isn't really an emotion, right? I'm not sure what you call it.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:23 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Richard, is that the one that goes....(I'm singing) c,c,e,e,g,g,e - f,f,d,d,b,b,f - c,c,e,e,g,g,e - high c,c, f#, f# g - BANG!
I sort of think that one is funny. But mostly because I love to watch people jump when they are started!!



EDIT: btw, I think seduction is easy for me to relate to in music because it's the hands on the keys...that sort of thing. Also the emotions; sad, happy, relaxed, and melancholy are easy to feel in music. Just not humor, which isn't really an emotion, right? I'm not sure what you call it.

Yes, except your 3rd f is a g :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:55 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
But mostly because I love to watch people jump when they are started!!

Like when they are jump-started ?

richard66 wrote:
Yes, except your 3rd f is a g

The f would be more fun though. I bet people would laugh at THAT :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:20 pm 
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:lol: I meant 'startled'.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:39 pm 
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The thing about humor (or for you Brits, humour) in music is that it is not always "ha ha" funny, just like in language. It has all of the shades of wit, satire, irony, sarcasm... that is found in language. It can be subtle or overt. Some of it is cultural and related to the time period, making it more difficult for us to find, just as some of Shakespear's humor flies over our heads due to changes from Elizabethan English to modern English.

One of my favorite humorous moments is in Beethoven's Emperor Concerto. For a moment, the transition from the second to the third movement sounds as if the pianist has forgotten what to play. It's as if he is noodling around trying to find the part. The strings tentatively pluck a couple of times and the bass is stuck on that one note afraid to move until something happens. It's a moment that gains its humor when it is put into context with what follows, which is glorious.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:32 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Richard, is that the one that goes....(I'm singing) c,c,e,e,g,g,e - f,f,d,d,b,b,f - c,c,e,e,g,g,e - high c,c, f#, f# g - BANG!
I sort of think that one is funny. But mostly because I love to watch people jump when they are started!!



EDIT: btw, I think seduction is easy for me to relate to in music because it's the hands on the keys...that sort of thing. Also the emotions; sad, happy, relaxed, and melancholy are easy to feel in music. Just not humor, which isn't really an emotion, right? I'm not sure what you call it.


:shock: ! Indeed. It seems I actually have absolute pitch, because I have never seen it written out, but that is I began to play one day out of the blue on the recorder.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:43 pm 
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I'm sort of lost on what we're talking about now... :?

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:48 pm 
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It was an aside.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Can't even remember what this thread was about now ....

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Techneut wrote:
Quote:
It is my philosophy that for each thing you truly love, there must be some other thing you truly hate. Yin and Yang, so to speak :) It's just not possible IMO to love/like all music, and I question the musical taste of anybody who says they do.


Though there is something true about that "Yin and Yang-philosophy" I have to admit, that I like nearly all music may be except Hip-hop and rap, because there often are always the same rhythmic (and if there are, also melodical patterns). And from a moral view the texts often are too bad in my humble opinion.

Quote:
So I've listed my top ten of pet hates in no particular order.

Virtuoso violin music a la Paganini and Sarasate, with lots of sixths, octave doublings, and sul ponticello passages
Transcriptions for strange combinations of instruments, like recorder or saxophone quartet
Schubert works for male choir
Orchestrations of piano pieces (Ravel in particular)
Flute and harp music
Baroque opera
Mendelssohn string quartets
Fortepiano and other instruments that fill the gap between harpsichord and piano
Vivaldi (most of it)
Operetta (most of it)


I all like this music you mention here respective I have nothing against it. I have to admit, that I don´t understand your constrictions too much. As someone who has studied music and teaches it as a subject in school I try to be as open as possible. And that´s, of course, also my private attitude. I think also, in 21st century as true musicians that´s our duty! I also have to admit, that operettas are not my favorites, but, of course, I can also enjoy a "Fledermaus" or other operettas.

I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:33 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


:lol: :lol: (sorry, Andreas, I can't help it...that just tickles my funny bone)

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:13 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
I all like this music you mention here respective I have nothing against it. I have to admit, that I don´t understand your constrictions too much. As someone who has studied music and teaches it as a subject in school I try to be as open as possible.
Of course I have not studied music - maybe that's my problem :P But I think I have as open a mind as anybody here, given the stuff that I play. I seem to love a more diverse array of music than many here. But I personally can't understand how people can say they like (nearly) all music. I agree that rap and hiphop are the absolute asshole of music, in fact not even worth the name music.

musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:
He was indeed quite a nasty little man. Though in all fairness he had many Jewish friends, and anti-semitism was very common in these days (and not just in Germany). I do immensely enjoy his overtures and incidental music (as long as there's no singers involved...). I think you should not let your appreciation of music be colored by knowledge about the composer's character or sympathies.

That reminds me how last year at an antiques fair we wanted to buy a porcelain drink beaker. The swastika and third reich standard on the bottom did not stop us from wanting it, it was really very pretty. It was much too expensive however. Pretty open-minded, eh....

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:17 pm 
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I thought this thread was about pets. I shall add some of my pet hates:

Accompanying.
Specifically, accompanying bad transcriptions of Handel arias.
Practicing scales. (I will probably flub the end of Chopin 25/11 long after I've mastered the rest.)
The vast majority of 'modern' music.
Beethoven's pianism.

I have more, but I figure that's enough for now. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:12 pm 
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techneut wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I all like this music you mention here respective I have nothing against it. I have to admit, that I don´t understand your constrictions too much. As someone who has studied music and teaches it as a subject in school I try to be as open as possible.
Of course I have not studied music - maybe that's my problem :P But I think I have as open a mind as anybody here, given the stuff that I play. I seem to love a more diverse array of music than many here. But I personally can't understand how people can say they like (nearly) all music. I agree that rap and hiphop are the absolute asshole of music, in fact not even worth the name music.

musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:
He was indeed quite a nasty little man. Though in all fairness he had many Jewish friends, and anti-semitism was very common in these days (and not just in Germany). I do immensely enjoy his overtures and incidental music (as long as there's no singers involved...). I think you should not let your appreciation of music be colored by knowledge about the composer's character or sympathies.

That reminds me how last year at an antiques fair we wanted to buy a porcelain drink beaker. The swastika and third reich standard on the bottom did not stop us from wanting it, it was really very pretty. It was much too expensive however. Pretty open-minded, eh....


I remember studying at a school and one day, looking out at the terrace, we noticed the swastikas on the tiles. We asked how this came to pass only to hear that the whole building, terrace included, dated from the early 20th century.

We must remember that our view of antisemitism is coloured by 12 years of Nazi rule. Just because of what happened then does not mean that Wagner would have condoned it. The same way we nowadays may be anti-imigration without necessarily feeling immigrants ought to be fed to the sharks.

The other day. listening to Medelssohn, I was wondering: just how could he (or anyone else for that matter) hear semitic traits there? The same goes for Mahler.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Quote:
But I think I have as open a mind as anybody here, given the stuff that I play. I seem to love a more diverse array of music than many here.


Of course, you show us a great variety of different composers and piano music, I think, more than anyone else here on PS, and also of course, you shouldn´t read out of my remarks, that I wanted you to call not open minded, which was not my intention. I just said, that I personally don´t understand your constrictions too much, that means, that I don´t share them, but again of course, music is a personal matter of taste and everyone may have his/her resentments.

Quote:
But I personally can't understand how people can say they like (nearly) all music.


But I seem to be one of those strange people. :D

Quote:
I think you should not let your appreciation of music be colored by knowledge about the composer's character or sympathies.


That´s principally a right notion, but somehow you can´t really separate his music from his mind. Though I have to say, that I accredit his special musical achievement, of course. There is no doubt, that he has his place among important composers, who have created something important and special in music history. It´s evident f.ex., that with his chromatic progressions Wagner has perfected the tonal music in a certain way respective he brought it to a certain limit, and with that he opened ways for new developments in direction of modern music.


Quote:
That reminds me how last year at an antiques fair we wanted to buy a porcelain drink beaker. The swastika and third reich standard on the bottom did not stop us from wanting it, it was really very pretty. It was much too expensive however. Pretty open-minded, eh....


I also wouldn´t see a reason not to buy that porcelain drink beaker, if it was as pretty as you say, if you ask me. :)

Thank you for this exchange of thoughts, by the way, I really like to think about those matters and I think, my personal development is not finished concerning them.

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Last edited by musicusblau on Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Richard66 wrote:
Quote:
Just because of what happened then does not mean that Wagner would have condoned it.


That´s also a right notion, but in a certain way he has preworked for the Nazi-ideology.

Quote:
The other day. listening to Medelssohn, I was wondering: just how could he (or anyone else for that matter) hear semitic traits there?


But some of Wagners theses were directly and personal against Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, he considered as an enemy. So, I´m not surprised Mendelssohn felt attacked.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:45 pm 
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musicusblau wrote:
That´s principally a right notion, but somehow you can´t really separate his music from his mind. Though I have to say, that I accredit his special musical achievement, of course. There is no doubt, that he has his place among important composers, who have created something important and special in music history. It´s evident f.ex., that with his chromatic progressions Wagner has perfected the tonal music in a certain way respective he brought it to a certain limit, and with that he opened ways for new developments in direction of modern music.

And even apart from his huge influence on other composers, some of his tunes, and the way he presents them, are just irresistible, at least to me. The Tannhauser and Meistersinger overtures, the Walkurenritte, the Siegfried Idyll - great music and pure genius, however much I dislike his wearing of silk underpants and his bottom-licking attitude with to his superiors.

musicusblau wrote:
I also wouldn´t see a reason not to buy that porcelain drink beaker, if it was as pretty as you say, if you ask me. :)

Many things from the Nazi period are just as aesthetically pleasing as anything else from that time, and I would not condemn them just because (but neither would I buy them just because). Actually I find some of Hitlers' paintings quite pretty (even though they are not great art by any standards), and would not hesitate buying one, provided it was not more expensive than the usual price I'd pay for an amateur painting :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:58 pm 
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I hear that Hitler was fond of Chopin. Of course, he might have just sought out the Jew-haters. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:10 pm 
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He was very fond of Wagner too, and very fond of his dog. You'd almost start to think he was halfway human ...

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Quote:
And even apart from his huge influence on other composers, some of his tunes, and the way he presents them, are just irresistible, at least to me. The Tannhauser and Meistersinger overtures, the Walkurenritte, the Siegfried Idyll - great music and pure genius,


I agree at hundred percent to that. But my favorite opera by Wagner is the "Parzival" and the best music he ever has written, is the motif of Parzival, "der reine Thor", which is in a pure and simple c-major. For me this is may be the only place Wagner has shown us, that there is a bit more than obscure ideology in his soul and mind. (As we know Parzival is a seeker of the Saint Grail, that means also he is seeking for God and the pureness.) But from that pureness Wagner seems not to have the faintest idea in most of his other works! :roll:
If you compare them with the oratorios by Mendelssohn, "Elias" and "Paulus" f.ex., I only can say, that - just judged from the music itself - in Wagner we have something like the devil and in Mendelssohn we have the pure angel. So, also the music seems to attest to the mind and character of their composers.

Quote:
Actually I find some of Hitlers' paintings quite pretty (even though they are not great art by any standards), and would not hesitate buying one, provided it was not more expensive than the usual price I'd pay for an amateur painting :


I see you are trying to separate the things themselves from the mind of their "creators" and I respect and appreciate that in a certain way! It´s an interesting point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:04 pm 
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techneut wrote:
He was very fond of Wagner too

Well, everyone knows that. :wink:

Quote:
...and very fond of his dog.

That, I didn't know. But it's not surprising that an dictator would like a dog. If he had loved a cat, I'd be surprised.

(See, you managed to make it about pets after all.)

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Quote:
pianolady wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


:lol: :lol: (sorry, Andreas, I can't help it...that just tickles my funny bone)


The most funny thing is, that "Puky" is a label on the bycycle of my son (I suppose, it´s a name of brand or so), and Chris made me considerate to the meaning of that name in English :lol: . I somehow spontaneously thought, in the context of Wagners ideology this wordplay could be of an adequate use. :twisted: You see, I´m not only creative concerning music. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:24 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:55 am 
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andrew wrote:
Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.
And his whiny-ass behavior and treatment of Liszt was deplorable!

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:09 am 
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andrew wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


The ancient Hebrews were also not producers of art, the Bible and the Temple excepted.

Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:12 am 
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andrew wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


I remember a book I once read (written in the 1930s, before the War) where there is a chapter called: The Monster and here a most obnoxious character is described. After one like him as much as much as the late Bin we are told it is Wagner who is being described.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:23 am 
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richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:24 am 
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pianolady wrote:
andrew wrote:
Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.
And his whiny-ass behavior and treatment of Liszt was deplorable!


Absolutely. It's very much to Liszt's credit that he put up with Wagner's incessant demands for money, etc, in the knowledge that subsidising his lifestyle would be for the greater artistic good.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:36 am 
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Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


But he was half-French, so maybe he is worth only 2 Poles? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:10 pm 
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andrew wrote:
Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.


:shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:41 pm 
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andrew wrote:
Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.

Yeah, that's a rumor, but as far as we know, it's untrue. A few biographies address the rumor. I need to get this book so I can see how it was refuted. It's not that I care - I would actually think it pretty funny if he was part Jew, and Chopin himself was always referring to his nose - but I'm pretty sure it was just a rumor that somehow became accepted as truth. It might have been a Polish attempt to mitigate the things Chopin said about Jews.

richard wrote:
But he was half-French, so maybe he is worth only 2 Poles?

lol. There were also rumors that Chopin's French father was actually the bastard son of a visiting Polish aristocrat. It was really believable, since the province of Lorraine was overflowing with Poles at that time, exiles from some political trouble or another (I forget which). The local governor was a Pole. That's how Nicolas Chopin ended up moving to Poland; he traveled with the steward of the local count to Warsaw to find a job (and to escape the turmoil brewing in France). But unfortunately, that rumor was also addressed in the above book. Apparently bastards were quite common, to the point that a bastard child would be marked so on his baptismal certificate. Nicolas Chopin was apparently pure French. (Though now that I think about it, I somehow doubt that the bastard children were regularly borne by married mothers - that seems like it would have been less socially acceptable. So maybe Nicolas really was half-Polish - they say that he encouraged that rumor himself! - which would make Chopin 3/4 Polish. But recent biographers treat it as a soundly refuted rumor.)

And no one cares much about Chopin's French ancestry since he was raised in Poland and saw himself as a Pole. They say he spoke French (relatively) badly and with a harsh accent until his death.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:10 am 
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Back to pet hates...I was happy to see that Chopin had made the banner again, until I saw the Alberti bass.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Back to pet hates...I was happy to see that Chopin had made the banner again, until I saw the Alberti bass.


Complain, complain, complain.... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Some styles of classical music that I don't like listening to:

Solo Flute
Solo Violin
Harpsichord(for some reason, it just has a "dark" sound to me that is only partially covered up by lively pieces)
Attempts to re-interpret classical compositions with pop arrangements.
Modern classical music that is full of dissonance.
Bach played on banjo

Although I don't hate the stuff on the list, I would much rather hear other things.


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