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 Post subject: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:23 am 
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Hello,

Another sonata in my Haydn repertoire recording project. An oft-neglected but IMO delightful early/middle sonata. The first movement exhibits a characteristically Haydnesque ebullience and affability, while the second is one of the more wholeheartedly romantic of the composer's middle movements. The lack of tonic resolution at the end of the Adagio actually represents an attaca into the third movement minuet, but since they are recorded on separate tracks, I guess the ears will have to hold the thought :P

Thanks for listening,

Joe

Haydn - Sonata in D major, Hob. XVI Nr. 33, I: Allegro

Haydn - Sonata in D major, Hob. XVI Nr. 33, II: Adagio

Haydn - Sonata in D major, Hob. XVI Nr. 33, III: Tempo di Minuetto

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Last edited by jlr43 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:21 am 
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Once again excellent playing. Better yet IMO than the previous one. I sense that ornaments don't come easily on your instrument. What make was it again ? Not the digital you use for your Youtube recordings I think ? (BTW do fix that camera angle....)

I noted two strange rhythmic glitches in the first mvt at 1:22 and 3:00 but I don't have the score here so maybe it is what Haydn intended.
The last part of the Minuet is nice but IMO the closing chords are too loud and assertive.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Very nice and clean, Joe. I like how every note is spot-on and you remain so steady. Do you record with a metronmoe?

I agree about the camera angle. Sort of strange. Also, why do you make videos on a digital anyway? They would be much more impressive on an acoustic grand. You look a little sad in this setup.

Chris, I can put these up later.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:49 pm 
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Thanks for listening, Chris and Monica.

Quote:
I sense that ornaments don't come easily on your instrument. What make was it again ?


It's a Steinway Concert B (7 foot, next size down from the 9-foot D). The piano is nice and even now that the action has been redone (three years ago), but the new action is quite heavy. We talked to the technician about possibly lightening it, but he said that could hurt the repeating mechanism (funny, since that can be difficult anyway because of the heaviness :P ). I like therefore that the ornaments generally sound even (and I've worked fairly hard on trills in the past), but sometimes a note or two doesn't sound quite come out the way I like. It may be a problem too just with the modern piano in general, there being so many ornaments in these earlier Haydn sonatas (later on, he uses many fewer trills and the ones he does employ tend to be more pianistic).

Quote:
I noted two strange rhythmic glitches in the first mvt at 1:22 and 3:00 but I don't have the score here so maybe it is what Haydn intended.


You're right. I rush the last beat of the left hand against the right hand cadential trills. I've noted that too as a bad habit of mine in the past with Mozart and Haydn. I'll keep that more in mind for future.

Quote:
I like how every note is spot-on and you remain so steady. Do you record with a metronmoe?


Thanks, Monica. I never record with a metronome and don't generally practice with one, although I do find the metronome very useful for reining in certain passages. Sometimes when I initially record something, my tendency is to rush, and so in relistening and rethinking, I'll use the metronome to check the passage or movement in question. I find this particularly useful with Bach, etudes, and classic-period music, where IMO the overall rhythmic focus is on an exact pulse.

Quote:
I agree about the camera angle. Sort of strange. Also, why do you make videos on a digital anyway? They would be much more impressive on an acoustic grand. You look a little sad in this setup.


I'm a newbie (started this year) at video recording, so I'm not sure how to record an acoustic and get good sound (my Sony digital camera has IMO great picture but poor sound). The basic good thing about recording the digial is that it's easy :P I just record directly into the computer on Audacity and then I sync up the video and audio on my video editing program. Regarding the camera itself, it's on a tripod perched on my desk, which is next to my computer and of course has a lot of other crap on it :D. Anyway, any advice either of you has about angle or getting good audio sound with an acoustic setup or anything video-related would of course be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:12 am 
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Hi Joe

I just listened to the sonata. The first movement has that Haydnesque exuberance for sure. I especially liked the quiet Adagio--beautiful! While listening to the Minuet, at 2:28 it almost sounds as though the mic position was changed. It seemed like a shift of balanced R-L volume levels toward a right channel bias there. Anyway, it's easy to tell that you have an affinity for this music, not only from the fact that you've studied all these sonatas, but more from the care you take in performing these works. Very fine playing, Joe.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:23 am 
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Thanks very much for listening, David. I'm glad you liked it. On my present project, I have six of the sonatas done (recorded over the past couple of months) Of course, I don't want to overload listeners -- or overwork the admins :lol: So i've so far been submitting one every week or so. I'm glad that my enthusiasm for Haydn, who has always been my favorite of the "Big Three" classical composers, continues to show thus far.

Thanks, too, for pointing out that glitch. Something happened with the balance in post-processing it appears. I fiddled with it a bit and reattached above (actually ended up reattaching all three movements so that the minuet would appear last) and think I improved it (?).

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:52 am 
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Ok, these are up, Joe. Regarding video recording tips: I have two cameras and both of them do not have good sound (I'd like to get a new camera one of these days)(but even so, I doubt a camera would give that great of a sound anyway), so I record with the camera and also my Edirol recorder. Then swap out the camera audio with the Edirol file in the post-processing. The camera angle is askew in your videos - like you intentionally made it look crooked. All you have to do is set your camera at a level so that you don't cut off your head and then look thru the lens to see if the image is level.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:40 am 
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Hi Joe,

That spot sounds pretty much the same to me, but in the scheme of things, it's not enough of a glitch to be a detractor. I wouldn't worry about it.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:48 pm 
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Hi,

Could you replace the versions on the site with these? I think I've fixed that spot David was talking about and I made a couple of other small edits as well to the other two movements. Sorry for the inconvenience. I generally try not to make a habit of this so soon after submitting, but am not always successful :)

Thanks,

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:34 am 
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Very nice to hear this. I think Haydn is shamefully neglected by most pianists. I particularly enjoyed the rhythmic aspects and sense of dialogue between phrases in the first movement. Throughout, the playing is distinguished by commendable attention to articulation and clarity: excellent!


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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:32 am 
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Ok, I've replaced the files. The links at the top of this thread are your new files.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Quote:
I think Haydn is shamefully neglected by most pianists.


Yes. I was surprised to see that there weren't more Haydn sonatas on the site (given that there are over 50 after all :P ) Haydn may be less immediate in some ways than Mozart and Beethoven, but for me it's generally fresher and more novel (at least the keyboard works).

Thanks very much for listening, Andrew.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:12 pm 
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Quote:
Ok, I've replaced the files. The links at the top of this thread are your new files.


Thanks, Monica.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Nice recording! I do love this sonata and am about to take it into the studio myself in a couple of weeks.

May I ask a question about the ornaments in the score you're working from? I have a variety of mordents, inverted mordents, and turns that sound different from yours. For example, at the beginning of the development section of the 1st mvt I have in the RH melody: turn, inverted mordent, inverted mordent, turn. Sounds like you have trill, inverted mordent, inverted mordent, trill.
Actually, the other spot that sounded odd to me was also trills instead of turns--in the 8 bars before the repeat I have several turns which sound like trills in your recording.
What edition do you have?

thanks from another student of the brilliant Haydn!
hreichgott

PS I am aware that ornamentation can often be very individual and up to the performer, but my understanding is that for Haydn I should be very specific about which ornaments to use.


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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Hello hreichgott and thanks for listening.

Quote:
May I ask a question about the ornaments in the score you're working from? I have a variety of mordents, inverted mordents, and turns that sound different from yours. For example, at the beginning of the development section of the 1st mvt I have in the RH melody: turn, inverted mordent, inverted mordent, turn. Sounds like you have trill, inverted mordent, inverted mordent, trill.
Actually, the other spot that sounded odd to me was also trills instead of turns--in the 8 bars before the repeat I have several turns which sound like trills in your recording.
What edition do you have?


I use the Schott Universal Wiener Urtext edition and I do have the same markings as yours. Regarding the turns at the conclusion of the exposition, I do play turns and begin them on the upper-neighbor notes (the C# and F#). For the ones at the beginning of the development, I play turns also but begin them on the principal note. I double-checked just to make sure I was playing turns but it could also be they're not as clear as they should be :P

Quote:
PS I am aware that ornamentation can often be very individual and up to the performer, but my understanding is that for Haydn I should be very specific about which ornaments to use.


I think that's true -- to a point. On the modern piano, since the number of ornaments are quite challenging in Haydn and Scarlatti, for example, ornaments are often left out altogether depending on the instrument and performer. Or sometimes they are shortened, which I think is also fine depending on context (I do try to be a purist, though, and do all the ones indicated even given the heaviness of the action). What I find to be one of the most important issues in playing ornaments in classic-period music, though, is the melodic direction. They should fit in with the melodic line as if the ornament wasn't there at all and should not distract from the melodic flow, which is why I will begin certain of them on the principal note and certain on the upper note.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your own recording and thanks again for listening.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:35 am 
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Hello Joe,

First movement: The broken arpeggios and ornaments are very rich and sound both wild and beautifully controlled at the same time. There is an almost Scarlatti like feel to the ornamentation. The melodies are slightly punctuated with accents throughout, making them seem voice like. The tempo is interesting.

Second movement: Very nice conception of the main motif. The scale like passages were very melodic. Sweet and pleasant to listen to, the second movement with it's delicate and yet forthright texture is charmingly convincing.

Third movement: This is very beautiful, very musical, precise, and well balanced. Bravo to you performance of the entire Sonata.

Thanks for sharing,
-Kaila

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:38 pm 
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Excellent!


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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:52 am 
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Hi,

Regarding Haydn being neglected today: I recall when I was a young piano student, good piano teachers at the time used to sequence the Classical period by introducing the student to Haydn, Mozart and then early Beethoven. It makes me wonder if today's teachers might be skipping over Haydn and going directly to Mozart. For whatever reason, it seems that only a few of these Haydn sonatas are widely known which is unfortunate.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:28 am 
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Quote:
Hello Joe,

First movement: The broken arpeggios and ornaments are very rich and sound both wild and beautifully controlled at the same time. There is an almost Scarlatti like feel to the ornamentation. The melodies are slightly punctuated with accents throughout, making them seem voice like. The tempo is interesting.

Second movement: Very nice conception of the main motif. The scale like passages were very melodic. Sweet and pleasant to listen to, the second movement with it's delicate and yet forthright texture is charmingly convincing.

Third movement: This is very beautiful, very musical, precise, and well balanced. Bravo to you performance of the entire Sonata.

Thanks for sharing,
-Kaila


Thanks for listening, Kaila, and for the compliments. I agree that the ornamentation and overall sound of some of these earlier sonatas is Scarlattiesque.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:29 am 
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Quote:
Excellent!


Thanks, rsmullyan.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:47 am 
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Quote:
Hi,

Regarding Haydn being neglected today: I recall when I was a young piano student, good piano teachers at the time used to sequence the Classical period by introducing the student to Haydn, Mozart and then early Beethoven. It makes me wonder if today's teachers might be skipping over Haydn and going directly to Mozart. For whatever reason, it seems that only a few of these Haydn sonatas are widely known which is unfortunate.

David


Hi David,

Yes, I think it's largely true that Haydn is often being passed by these days (although it seems to have enjoyed somewhat of a renaissance among certain of today's generation of professional pianists). Haydn's intricate rhythmic textures in particular are, I think, of tremendous pedagogical importance. I think it is sometimes neglected because it lacks the immediate appeal of Mozart and Beethoven, its structure and melodic ideas being wilder and more experimental. Besides the late E-flat, I'm not even sure that any of the Haydn sonatas are "widely known," although the two late C Majors and the first E-flat have begun to receive their due recently as well. This may in part be explained by the fact that besides these late sonatas, the Haydn sonatas, like the Scarlatti sonatas were largely written as instructional material. The E-flat and C Major late sonatas, on the other hand, were written for the touring virtuoso Therese Jansen to play.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:57 am 
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Hi Joe,

Thanks for your thoughts on that--very interesting too.

Quote:
Besides the late E-flat, I'm not even sure that any of the Haydn sonatas are "widely known,"


I can think of one that many pianists would know immediately: the Sonata in D Hoboken XV1/37. (Had to look that number up.) A long time ago we used to affectionately refer to this one as "the chicken clucker",based on the opening movement. :lol: It's impossible not to enjoy this wonderful piece!

Here is another angle on perceptions of the sonatas. Haydn certainly did play the harpsichord and piano, but he was also considered an accomplished violinist. So some today think of him more as a string player, the piano sonatas being a bit of an anomaly, although he did compose a dozen or so other pieces such as variations and smaller pieces. His greater emphasis though seemed to be the symphonies, masses and string ensemble pieces. If so, than that too might account for today's teachers tending to bypass these sonatas, perhaps believing that they were more of a sideline in Haydn's creative work.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:16 am 
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Quote:
I can think of one that many pianists would know immediately: the Sonata in D Hoboken XV1/37. (Had to look that number up.)


Ah yes, good point. That one has always seemed particularly Mozartean to me. It is indeed very frequently played. That one actually has never appealed to me as much and I decided not to do it, especially since I will be doing the other four late ones I mentioned in my earlier post.

Quote:
f so, than that too might account for today's teachers tending to bypass these sonatas, perhaps believing that they were more of a sideline in Haydn's creative work.


Another good point. The piano sonatas, like Mozart's, IMO are vastly less important than the other Haydn works you mention, but wonderful nevertheless. Piano teachers, as you mentioned earlier, ironically do seem to love assigning Mozart sonatas, though they too are on the whole probably much less important than other of that composer's works like the operas, piano concertos, ensemble works, etc. Incidentally, I've always preferred Haydn's sonatas to Mozart's and thought the latter's were a bit overrated (besides the A and C minor).

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:39 pm 
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That's a lovely performance. Haydn is too classical for my taste but I enjoyed listening throughout. Your second movement (adagio) is excellently played. In general, I think you have a beautiful rendering of all details. Loved the use of pedal.


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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Hi Joe,

Had a listen to these, enjoyed all three movements! The first has the right pace and the balance of right and left hand is well done. The second had the right tempo to be adagio and the broken chords in the left hand paired with the melody nicely. For the third movement I would have liked the dotted figures to sound longer on the pickup note, but overall not half bad!

Look forward to more sonatas from you (by haydn or whoever) :P

Riley

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn Sonata in D Major, Hob. XVI/33
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Riley and wiser guy,

Thanks very much for listening and for the comments. Much appreciated.

Joe

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